scoostraw

I am planning to help a friend with her 93 Accord LX (4-door). There is an awful squeak in the suspension on the left front. I suspect the lower ball joint. The CV joint is also bad on this side, and there is play in both outer tie rod ends.

So I plan to replace the left CV axle, tie rod ends, and probably both lower ball joints (need to diagnose a bit to determine if possible exactly where the squeak is coming from).

My main question is - which parts? I know dealer parts and Moog are highly regarded. But this car is strictly a grocery getter. It may never leave town again in its life.

And yes money is an issue.. As an example, a NAPA house brand tie-rod end is around $17. Their 'better' one is $43 (made by Dana I believe).

Same with ball joints. House brand $19. 'Dana' $38.

I already replaced the right CV axle on this car last year and used the 'better' NAPA part (around $80) so I plan to do the same on the left side.

The guys at NAPA say they have had no issues with the less expensive parts. What are your guys thoughts ??

(I posted on another forum also. Apologies if you saw this twice.)

kevinhughes13

Here's what I'd do if I were you. Go with the Napa axle since you've had a good experience with the last and go for Moog ball joints. Sign up for Amazon new account get free amazon prime for 30 days for free shipping and here's the moog lower ball joints you need. http://www.amazon.com/Moog-K9643-Ball-Joint/dp/B000C5A1DE 18 bucks a piece is exactly what your gonna pay at your auto parts stores and I'm sure these are of higher quality. Same goes for the tie rods http://www.amazon.com/Moog-ES3154-Steering-Center-Link/dp/B000C55WPG/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1430012908&sr= 1-1&keywords=moog+3154 and if you search Amazon for moog 3153 that's the other tie rod you need I believe their 26-27 per tie rod. I'd say well worth the piece of mind even though money is tight. Make sure you get an alignment after all this work too.

scoostraw

Great idea Kevin, thanks. No arguing with those prices wow. Ironically, just yesterday I signed up for the free 30-day prime when I ordered a part for my truck.

Am I correct that none of these lower ball joints are greaseable? Also can you point me to a good link - or posting in this forum - on a straight-forward way to test those lower ball joints for play?

kevinhughes13

I don't think they are grease able and it all works out since you just signed up for Amazon prime. If your having a creak-squeak then I would say its your lower ball joints. Here's what I'd do to make it easier for you and your friend. Take it to a shop that does free inspection explain to them the symptoms then let them check it out give you a print out of what the car needs and take it from there. BTW where are you guys located? Because you know what's funny my drivers side axle needs to be replaced on my 90 so does both of the tie rods and the lower ball joints. Like it all started over the dam winter LOL.

Forgot to mention these cars 90-93 Accords are considered cb7s google cb7tuner you'll find the website with a lot of people that are willing to help and info in the DIY section my name on there is kev1990.

scoostraw

I think this will work out fine. I just ordered the ball joints and tie-rod ends. Will be here Wednesday. (Got the last one in stock of one of the TR ends)

At these prices I imagine some shops even purchase parts this way - if they have enough lead time. Thanks again.

kevinhughes13

No problem. So anyways about that axle you said you've had a good experience with Napa's axle? I don't know what brand was put into my passenger axle when it was replaced over a year ago but its holding up whatever it is.

scoostraw

The guys at my NAPA are friends, and have helped me out more than once when I've been in a bind. And they don't charge me for cores etc. So I feel like I'm cheating on them by going with the Moog parts. But I did give them first crack. Sometimes it's just not the best option.

I think I recall them suggesting at the time that I go with the "better" NAPA axle for the passenger side that I did. They're pretty straight with me if they know there are issues with any of their stuff.

scoostraw

Well this happened before my friend wanted me to make the repair:



Fortunately speed was about 5 mph and it was 2 blocks away from home. So today I began working on it, and I have a couple of questions..

In pressing the ball joint out, the flange is catching on the knuckle casting. I'm not sure if it's because it's a little cocked in the bore (I know it is a little). The area I'm talking about is indicated by the arrow in the photo.



I'm using a puller and I can't seem to keep the thing straight because the puller is pushing against the inards of the ball joint. I'm thinking I may have to use a die grinder or dremel to remove part of the flange on the old ball joint to be able to get it all the way out. What are your guys thoughts?

The other issue is the other part of the ball joint. I thought I would be able to hammer it out easily enough from the bottom, but it is really stuck in there. Any suggestions on this one? Puller again? Heat??

masospaghetti

To get that stud out of there, I would get a big, heavy duty C-clamp (or one of the ball joint press clamps from the parts house) and squeeze on it really hard. Would also help to use penetrating oil and some serious heat.

Are you sure the ball joint socket is catching on the casting and not the wheel hub? I didn't have this issue when I did mine, but I also removed my wheel hub before trying.

Don't cheap out on suspension parts. DON'T DO IT!! It's not worth doing this a second time after weeks of aggravation trying to find a new, failed part. Its definitely not worth your life when the ball joint fails and the spindle separates from the lower control arm. You can get Honda OEM lower ball joints from Amazon for about $25. Look up the part number here. https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/
I had one Moog lower ball joint fail within less than a month, so I would recommend going OEM. Its a lot of labor to do it twice.

Regarding CV axles, you can read about my experiences here: https://honda-tech.com/honda-accord-...ation-3227179/

In short, if you want a car that is decent to drive, buy a Raxle and spend the money. Everything else I tried was crap - Duralast / A1 Cardone reman, Surtrack, A1 Cardone Select, local rebuilder.

scoostraw

Hey maso I read your posts about your saga with the vibration. I give you credit for staying with it and nailing it down.

I think I would go with OEM for ball joints in the future. For this job I did go ahead and put in the Moogs. But your points are well taken.

I got everything out. I used heat on the lower control arm, and banged the hell out of it (where the stud goes thru) - then smacked it from below until it popped out.

On the ball joint, I purposely cocked it a bit in the bore so that the flange of the ball joint where it was interfering was moved over as far as possible. Then I jammed a screwdriver between the ball joint and knuckle casting. I hit it from below with an air hammer - then removed the screwdriver - hit it again with the hammer and it popped right out.

As soon as I began to install the new ball joint I promptly discovered that my tool (one of those universal c-clamp style tools) was not going to cut it. I had read where you guys had talked about needing the "Honda tool". Now I get it.

I debated cutting up one or more of the adapters of my tool. Then thought about getting a piece of iron pipe and modifying it. All this before it came to me to call O'Reillys. They have the correct tool as part of their rental program, so I got that - and it worked like a charm. Short of having a press, that tool is essential IMO for this job.

When I put in the new axle and buttoned everything up however, I discovered that I have a problem.

The steering knuckle is hitting the spring. Something must have gotten bent when the ball joint broke, although I can't tell by looking. My suspicion is the upper control arm. It would make sense (to me anyway) that this could have bent, and the geometry of such an event could cause the problem I'm seeing.

The camber is off - the top of the wheel is leaning inboard. Fortunately I had already decided before discovering this that I would replace the upper control arms for good measure - so those parts are on the way. But I would feel better about all this if I could SEE something bent. But I can't.

I am hoping that a new control arm will fix things up...?

scubacamper

It doesn't matter now since you've already ordered parts but, I have been and will continue to order all my parts from RockAuto.com - their prices are not even comparable to local parts stores - they're somewhat comparable to Amazon, but still the cheapest.

About the heat & penetrating oil: I would not do these both at the same time - this would definitely pose a fire hazard...

About the ball joint getting stuck: I have not had this problem - every other time, I've just popped it straight out with a puller. If I were in your shoes, I would use the dremel or grinding wheel on the ball joint itself and NOT the knuckle - you're replacing the ball joint, so it won't matter.
It looks like there's a good bit of corrosion/rust there - did you try taking a wire brush to the area and giving it a good scrubbing?

I can't imagine the new ball joint would have the same problem, although I guess it's possible. However, if you were to take a dremel to the knuckle, it doesn't look like it'd take much - not enough to affect the integrity of the knuckle, it appears.

I'm glad to know no one was hurt when that assembly came loose - yikes!



oops - didn't realize you'd had everything apart & back together...guess it pays to read!

Did you check your strut assembly? seems like if the car suddenly dropped, it would put serious upward & inward force on the strut assembly, possibly even bending the point where the strut mounts to the car, under the hood.
It definitely sounds like something got bent when everything went south.

scoostraw

Yes nothing looks the slightest bit disturbed or bent. The "shock tower" mounting area etc. - all looks fine. But something is bent obviously. I'm really hoping that it's the upper control arm. That wheel got wrenched ALL the way to the left - like 90 degrees. I just wish I could notice with my eyeballs that it was bent.

Regarding the lower ball joints, when I replaced the "good" side I had the same issue - the ball joint hit the hub when I pressed it out. I actually used a wheel cutter and removed the flange on the new ball joints just at that interference point before pressing them in.

masospaghetti

I wasn't trying to imply that Moogs are low quality. I've have good luck with them most of the time, just one bad apple with the lower ball joint.

I would have serious reservation about the $4 ball joints though. Firsthand experience shows that the metal quality is just not there - the material is too weak to even torque to spec without stripping.

Sounds like you're probably right on this. It would take a LOT of force to bend the spindle. The stamped steel upper control arm would probably be the first to give.

Rockauto is an excellent source of parts. It makes you realize how much the local stores are ripping you off when you can get Anco wiper blades for $2.50 there compared to $19.99 each from the local house.

scubacamper

I'm not sure they're ripping me off per say, they've got significantly more overhead & I'd essentially be paying for convenience...but yes, ra is much cheaper.

scoostraw

This is my thinking. And I agree re. the spindle - there was not near enough energy to bend that IMO.

At the back of my mind I keep thinking about the lower control arm tho. When the ball joint broke, the weight fell onto that and the bottom of the ball joint stud scraped along the pavement for several feet.

I'll know soon enough, as the upper arms arrive tomorrow.

When I read online reviews for Rockauto, the thing I noticed is that the people who did have negative experiences seemed to be the ones where Rockauto made an error on their order (incorrect part shipped, wrong item inside the box etc.). The people who complained had a lot of problems with their customer service.

I did price my parts at Rockauto, but ended up ordering from Amazon (price identical for all intents and purposes) because I knew that if there was a problem Amazon would not hassle me.

scoostraw

I just had a chance to look things over (with a clear head) and noticed that the radius rod on the offending side is bent. (I took a photo but can't upload it at the moment)

I figured that it should be straight, but in looking at a parts diagram it appears that maybe there is supposed to be a bend in it. Do any of you guys know?

{edit: here is a photo. Pretty bent - but maybe was this way all along(??)

scoostraw

I got a new radius rod and compared it. It was identical, so I stayed with the old one.

I then removed the struts and replaced them. Lo and behold, this is what the one from the left side looked like when it came out.



Finally a "smoking gun". But when I put the new struts in... same problem. The knuckle hits the strut - can't turn the wheel.

So I'm wondering at this point if the steering knuckle got bent? How often do these get bent does anybody know?

At this point I can't think of much else.

scubacamper

Yikes!
I don't know about the steering knuckle - I suppose it's possible, but I don't think your struts condition would cause the turning issue(?)
Just my guess...

scoostraw

I agree scuba.

I'm now thinking that if the shock of the event was enough to bend the strut like that, then it's likely that the lower control arm got tweaked as well. If it got bent upward, it could cause my problem if I'm thinking correctly.

My thinking now is to get a new lower control arm and knuckle. They are really the only pieces left on that side.

I did do a little googling and yeah knuckles do get bent, so who knows. With such a low speed event as this was, I'm learning that there there still was enough energy to do quite a bit of damage.

scubacamper

Yes - even at low speeds, inertia compounds force. Sounds reasonable to me..

scoostraw

I got a new lower control arm, and a salvage knuckle.

The first thing I did was put a tape measure on the knuckles between where the brake hose retainer mounts - and the top where the upper control arm attaches. There was easily 1/8" to 3/16" difference between the two. The one on the car being shorter.

Since the "new" knuckle came with a ball joint, I installed it just to have a look-see. Voila - the knuckle cleared the spring and everything turned as normal.

So I wasted no time in moving my new lower ball joint, rotor, bearing and hub over to the "new" knuckle and installed it. I eyeballed the lower control arm as compared to the new one, but I could not see any difference. The LCA is pretty beefy, so I presumed and hoped that maybe it was okay.

When I had everything torqued and back together, I did a quickie toe adjustment and road tested. The car feels good. Solid, tight, quiet, tracks straight, no pull. I am pleased.

Thanks guys for all the input along the way. The Honda lives.

kevinhughes13

DAM Man all of this happened since I last originally posted lol I'm glad to hear your car is up and running again.

Like posted above if I knew before hand OEM lower ball joints were 25 vs 18 Moog I would and will go OEM next time even though my Moog lowers are doing just fine so far.

What brand axle did you go with? I actually recently changed my drivers side axle with a A1 Cardone remanufactured axle and am very happy with the quality of it but only time will tell if it lasts. May I ask with the person above who had problems with these axles where were you buying them from and what were your problems with them?

I am really glad to see that happened only doing 5MPH though it could of been a lot worse. Since I made that first post above I changed everything I had to + a harmonic balancer and all is well so far.

scoostraw

Nothing fancy re. the axle. NAPA reman - was about $55.

Next for this Accord is to fix the fender rust...

masospaghetti

I bought three A1 Cardone Reman axles from Autozone (Duralast Reman). I also bought three A1 Cardone Select from Amazon. All six vibrated and shimmied under acceleration.

I'm glad yours worked out.

kevinhughes13

Dam so what brand axles do you suggest then?