AtoZ

M/Y Honda: 95 Ex, Vtec, AT, Abs, 4 Dr, 163K

Searched the archives and found some talk about EGR and TPS under the words shudder. Close, but nothing specific for a shudder tied into shifting. Here are the facts as I experienced them: I was driving the vehicle in the beginning of July right when a heat wave first hit our area, and it felt as if I was driving over a slightly bumpy road, kinda like a washboard. I wasn't aware of any other symptoms at the time. About 2 hours later when I was taking the vehicle for a wheel alignment, I felt the shudder thru the gas pedal -- I thought it might be wheel balance, fuel pressure/clogging, or a motor mount. Its none of those for sure. The guy who did my alignment (an older guy that has been around and knows quite a bit about vehicles) said he felt the shudder at various speeds, and thinks its drive train related. There is one other symptom that happens, but not consistently, so I'm not sure if it is related to the shudder problem. When the shudder occurs, sometimes I hear a rapid fire machine gun sound, like metal hammering against metal, coming from the engine compartment.

Since then, I have discovered that it happens ONLY if I am applying light throttle. If I push the throttle a little bit further, the shudder goes away or shifts. I can actually keep it shuddering by keeping the throttle very still when it happens (I had to do it for diagnostic purposes). I did a diagnostic check, and it shows two codes: Code 1 and Code 8, the Lockup and Shift Solenoids. I tested them per Helms manual -- resistance is within specs; direct voltage applied makes them click; the screens are not clogged.

The really depressing thing is that, the big name transmission shops all say this, almost as if they memorized it. I try to explain the problem and they interrupt me and say. "What is the year, make, model, and mileage of the vehicle?" When I say 95 Honda Accord, 163 k, they all say, "Its your transmission, its the clutches and/or bands, it needs to be rebuilt, it cost about $1,800, we do more Hondas than any other vehicle, they are known for that problem."

I am of the mind set not to condemn the vehicle, but a trans problem is the worst kind of vehicle problem to have. I was aware that many of the 1998 thru 2003 Acura had trans problems, via Consumer Reports, but I didn't know that about all Hondas. I am so disgusted and depressed about this, it seems like all the money and work I put into the restoration was in vain. I finished the restoration work in Nov 2009. The vehicle is now at 163,000 miles. Runs well and does not seem to suffer any other problems.

jdadams12

When is the last time that you drained and replaced some fluid?

If you cannot remember, then do it. Just drain and refill with the right amount per your manual. If that helps, then do it 2 more times while driving about 20 minutes inbetween.

It might not be too late for your clutch packs. I might just be that your fluid has lost it's viscosity in the heat.

You can use regular old Dex/Merc for this. This will have a slightly harder shift than using the Honda Fluid, but soft shifts mean wear.

bryse68

from what i know, transmission shudder before shifting is usually caused by torque convertors. but with the mileage you have on your vehicle, its best to replace the transmission and torque convertor.

AtoZ

Uh ..... do you work for AAMCO on the side?

AtoZ

I got the vehicle in 2004, I drained the pan and added what 2 qts, 2.5 qts? The old fluid was not clear but it was not burnt or black as I recall, just kinda regular dirty. I changed the driveshafts last October and got it road worhty in Nov 09 and put a bottle of [Red] lubeguard in ... Its not so much what I did as much as what the former owner did not do, because she did not maintain this vehcile in many other areas. Bottom line is that I do not know what the former owner did or didnt do, as far as the atf goes, or even what kind of atf was used. I'll pick up a case of Z1 [$70, ouch] and change out as much as possible.

Are you suggesting that Z1 might not be what I should use for this particular vehicle? Never thought I would hear that one, but I'm all ears.

jdadams12

The fluid should be cherry red. When you change it, notice the amount of metal on the end of the magnetic drain plug. Post a picture if you can.

The Z1 is what Honda recommends. It is a decent quality base with a bunch of Friction Modifers added to allow extra slippage for a smooth shift. Smooth shifts increase wear, but rides nice - firms shifts have SIGNIFICANTLY less wear, but not as smooth of a ride. The Z1 is not all that bad if changed regularly (15K ish, seriously I would do it this soon), but if your tranny is already worn, then it will only increase the issue since the clutches are already slipping on their own. Regular Dextron/Merc has less Friction Modifiers and will allow the clutches and torque converter to grab better... but at a price of a firmer shift.

In your case, I would use the dex/merc because it is cheap and you don't know if it will work. I would buy the 1 gallon and then 1 quart (for a pair of 2.5Q refills). Drain and refill, drive 10-20 miles and drain and refill again. If this seems to solve most of your worries. Then do it again in a week or two with some Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. These 4 changes should get 95-98% (or something) of the old fluid out.

The synthetic fluids have a better base than the Z1 or regular dex/merc does.

I use synthetic dex/merc (Mobil 1 or Valvoline) in my 92 accord. It got a new tranny at 60K in 1998, or something, and I have 360+ on the car now, and 300K on the "new" tranny. I have started to use the Synthetic dex/merc in my 2006 TL too.

Type F fluid has no Friction Modifiers and can sometimes be used for a while on an extremely worn transmission to push back a rebuild. This should ONLY be a last resort just to buy some time.

Let us know how it goes. I hope that this helped.

double b from wv

all i can add is that i had a dodge caravan that had a terrible shutter and shimmy that came and went... usually came with a heavy throttle/torque demand. but anyway, it was throwing a code for the 'torque converter lockup solenoid', which i guess makes the TC lock and unlock depending on throttle and stuff. i drove the van to death and never fixed it... i hate a dodge!!

point is that it threw an engine code. if yours isnt throwing a light, its probably a physical problem rather than electrical or something like that.

thats really good to know. what do you think about Castrol Multi-Import ATF? just wondering because i recently used some of it in my 91 accord.
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the metal banging from under the hood seems like its a bit more than an internally screwed transmission. is it possible that a bad engine/trans mount could be putting things on a bind?

jdadams12

From what I can personally tell, the Castrol Multi Import is full of Friction Modifiers as well. It might be the same fluid as the Z1 for all that I know - it certainly acts like it.

AtoZ

Is this Synthetic (Mobil 1) that you mentioned, the current Synthetic Dexron VI ?

Btw, what is your opinion of Lubeguard? It was suggested that higher mileage vehicles might benefit from it to lessen the heat buildup. Do you think that is true or do you think it can cause problems?

jdadams12

I think that is the stuff - I don't have a bottle with me. Read on the back and if it says that it is Dex Merc III compatible, then it is. The Valvoline stuff that I have been using is the VI.

I don't know what lubeguard is. I doubt that the issue is hot fluid - even if it is, then fix the issue with the cooling lines.

AtoZ

I got a case of the Dex III. I appreciate your help, but I know nothing about trans issue and have no opinions, and I'm getting torn between experts here, and worse, no one really knows for sure what the answer is. It sounds logical but again, who am I to say. I told a mechanic friend [a master tech] what you said about avoiding the Honda atf and he responded by saying that advice on many things, albeit good or bad, is all over the Internet, and is easy to do especially since it is not his car. He said check out if this advice is agreed upon by the consensus of the Honda Tech members, or if it is just one person's opinion. Ask if the person is an engineer, trans tech, and ASE tech, or a do-it-yourselfer, i.e., what the qualifications are. I think his major skepticism is the suggestion not to use the recommended Honda Z1 (that is what is worrying him, as he never heard that advice). On the other hand, this same tech once told me that a good tech knows what he can get away with, and so, I wonder if this is one of those situations. I have seen many instances where a non-pro has discovered an answer that is not status quo approved. He understands the reasoning and said although it also sounds logical to him, he is wondering if there is maybe other reasons why Honda recommends their atf that we might not be aware of, because many a mistake sounded logical to begin with.

I think the other reason is that on one hand you advice not to use the Z1, but then advise using the Mobil Dex VI, which I'm sure has lots of friction modifiers just like the Z1. Can you offer any encouraging thoughts about this predicament? Just trying to be very very careful.

jdadams12

You are going about this the absolute correct way. Do your homework, learn and then make a decision that works for you - you ultimately have do deal with everything and fix it (either yourself or with your money).

We all know that some techs/masters are not close to being pros and that some amateurs are better than some pros, so that is why you have to ask, read and decide. There are plenty of hacks out there with all kinds of pedigrees... and plenty of pros with no pedigree. Your friend is right - question everybody and make your own plan.

The reason that I won't tell you "what the answer is" is because I don't know. I can only offer opinions and suggestions. If anybody claims to "know" without an inspection and in-depth history, then run away.

I don't have too many qualifications, but I will post mine later in a picture from a few years ago - don't have it on me now.

The only fluid that does not have any FM, that I know of, is Type F. Even the dex/mercIII has some, but not as many as the Z1. I can tell you that the Merc VI yields firmer and quicker shifts than the Z1 - both up and downshift. The Mobil that I use is Merc III, but even though I have half of a dozen bottles at home, I did not see any at the store the last time. I wonder what happened to it? The Valvoline VI acts just like the Valvoline III in my accord.

I can only tell you that Z1 = smooth shifts, smooth shifts = wear, wear = short-lived transmissions and honda trannys = short lived. Hard bone-crushing shifts also equal short lived. Firm shifts = less wear = long life. Honda also suggests like 60K for your first fluid change, and 15K is more like it. I can also tell you from my own experience that there is 1/5 the amount of shavings on the magnetic plug when you use Dex XXX over Z1 - you can see the less wear right in front of your eyes when you change the fluid next time.

Give the Dex III a try. If you like it, find some Synthetic Dex III for the next time - it is not as firm in shift as the Dinosaur Dex III, but still firm (it is kinda inbetween the Z1 and the Dex III without the wear). You should be able to tell a big difference in 1 change... and a huge difference in 2 changes. If you don't see a change, then stop there because it is likely something else that is the problem.

AtoZ

Yeah, that's what I am aware of all the time. Truth is not easy to come by.

AtoZ

Well, I'm not sure which atf I will end up choosing, but I suppose that replacing all the current fluid with std plain vanilla Dex III cannot hurt to run it for a short time until I decide. Sure hope that if I choose the Synth Dex VI, it will perform better than the Z1 and cost alot less.

jdadams12

I saw the Mobil Synthetic stuff again at Advance Auto. It is not the VI, rather the "pre 2006." I bought a case.

Like you said, it won't hurt to use the Dex III. Heck, if the clutches are fine and the slipping was just the fluid (and not wear), then you could use the Z1 again if you like the soft shift. If the clutches and/or torque converter are worn, then Z1 won't work well.

In any case, just get a change in there so that you what the problem was. You can always decide which ATF to use in a few weeks while you are tricking around in a smooth riding car.

A little late, but here is the only pedigree that I have. Pic is from a year ago that I took to get my insurance lowered. This is my car that I am driving today. I have made decisions and maintained it like I am invested 100%... because I am 100% invested.

phootbag

If you don't clean your EGR ports you are even more idiotic than the moron who suggested your transmission contains "bands".