onda22

I have 1990 honda accord ex
It has over 150K miles on it

I made the mistake (as people tell me) to change the transmission fluid. I put in the best stuff I could which is dw-1 because I couldn't get atf-z1 because they don't make it anymore.

Well, you guessed it, the transmission runs worse now. It jerks and is slow to switch to the right gear when I drive under 40 mph. Especially when climbing from 0 - 2rpm. After 2rpm and after 3rpm, it shifts pretty good, so it runs great on the freeway where I'm 3rpm+

People have told me that it is because I changed the fluid, because the old fluid had "clutch material" or bits of metal or fibers from the transmission parts, that somehow helps it shift now. Where the new shiny pink fluid, doesn't have this.. and the old fluid was black and dirty...


Unfortunately, I recycled the old fluid, so I can't put it back in.

Here's the question:
Can I put some old transmission fluid in from a similar car 90-93 that has over 100K miles in it? If this old fluid has this "clutch material and fibers" in it, then I should be back to square one right?

I figure I can go to a junkyard and drain some trannys on an old honda.


Why don't they just sell a bottle of "clutch material" or fiber stuff additive, so people like me can just add it to their transmission fluid, if the lack of this is causing the problem..

Thanks for the advice.

Dc4LsTeG

iTrader: (7)

Lol

Flagmichael

That is a weird notion I have been seeing around for a month or so. For ages Honda enthusiasts have been draining and filling with ATF-Z1 every 30K miles with no problems at all. Of course, only part of the fluid is changed at any one time so it takes about three changes to mostly change the fluid out. I assure you, the fuzz (shouldn't be any chunks or slivers in it) that you got out will not help your transmission work any better. For that matter, the fluid you put in is a whole lot better for your transmission than the fluid you drained out.

Rather than going backward, go forward. You can drain and refill again now that the fluid has circulated through the torque converter. By the time you get mostly good fluid in there it should straighten out. It's sure better than having debris and worn out oil in it.

Nicefeet

The old-timers keep spreading this myth that it’s bad to change your transmission fluid if your car has a ton on miles in between changes. What they fail to account for is the additive package, which includes friction modifiers, is used up.

I personally would not spend the money on Honda trans fluid in a 90-93. In my personal car a 1991 Accord I’m running Valvoline Maxlife. The owners manual if fact calls for standard Dexron II and not any of the “special” Honda fluids. It says this twice in the original owners manual, once on the back cover and once inside page 80 something.

redbull-1

This is how I feel too. But, the myth keeps persisting...

Nicefeet

I took the liberty of scanning my owner’s manual. Unless someone can show me a TSB saying 90-93 Accords need special Honda fluid just save your money people. I’m just going leave this here.

MAD_MIKE

Uhhh... no.

Although I do agree the friction modifier is done, with the transmission with so many high miles the clutch packs are also worn. That lack of modifier contributes to the transmission to maintain traction in the clutch packs. Add modifier and the clutches won't chatter, but they won't grip either.

I've always wondered what would happen if a ATF was used that had little to minimal modifiers in it....

onda22 for ***** and giggles, find a few gallons of Type F fluid, flush your trans once more and top it off with Type F and get back to us.

djkurious

I thought they drained all the fluids before putting the cars on the yard...

v4lu3s

all i can say is that after working in a honda repair shop and honda junkyard i NEVER saw a honda transmission work as well with dexron as it did with honda fluid.

I also never saw a transmission recover when it had the fluid changed after not having it changed for way too long. usually when a high mileage auto tranny had its fluid changed it started slipping and failed. We even refused to change the fluid on auto trannys unless they had documented prior changes, it happened too many times that they changed the fluid and 3-4 weeks later the person was back demanding we rebuild their transmissions since we "messed it up."

Steve Z

And there we have where the "myth" originates. While it's true to some degree as v4lu3s stated they usually do not make a comeback once the bs starts. So, what to do? First off, this is exactly why its good to changing the fluid on schedule so that this doesn't happen. But to the OP, nope Dude, draining some grunge out of another car is never going to fix the box. Ha,ha,ha,ha a bottle of clutch material!

Lost Again

That was kind SteveZ.

I can tell Mike understands the "properties" of trans fluids types- Type F...nice

Myths.....well some come from truths, in their day. But we are not dealing with a TH350/TH400/C4/TF in the early to mid 70's....here is another one for you folks, still change your oil every 3,000 miles .Yes the owners manual says something around that for "severe duty" yet I'd bet you change the t-belt at 100k....

OP-Was there any issues before the change? Was the fluid checked properly (some Honda's like to be checked warm and within a certain amount of time after shutting off the engine) after the drain and fill? Double check the throttle cable for proper adjustment and movement.

Flagmichael

My daughter's 1993 Accord got its first ever transmission fluid change shortly after I bought it at 163K miles. After the first fluid change it was slightly harsher, after the second it was about like it started, and after the third it was smoother. I was warned about the poor shifting qualities of Dexron in Honda forums and used ATF-Z1 every time.

Your mileage may vary....

v4lu3s

more often than not it happened that way. i saw it myself a few times, and was told the same by the two mechanics that had been there since the mid 80s. what it came down to was that transmissions that were neglected often broke and ones that were cared for properly lasted. sometimes people got lucky, though usually when they got the bright idea that they should change teh fluid for the first time at 213k miles was because the transmission was already slipping or shifting hard. thats a loooooong time for old technology fluid to last and a testament to how well built honda transmissions are.

19Accord97

Put some sawdust in it.....sounds like its already on its way out anyways.

This is a prime example why ATF needs to be changed often. I do a drain and refill ever other oil change or every 6,000 miles. Never flush it. Never use anything other than Honda ATF.

Nicefeet

Why would sawdust help? I sometimes think people throw stupid stuff like that out there just to boost their post count.

MAD_MIKE

I agree, but since this trans is probably on its last legs anyway, whats wrong with a little science experiment with Type F?
I'm actually surprised no one has ever offered such an item. Half the snake oils out there don't do squat, why not one more.
That's supposedly an old used car salesmans trick. Slipping transmission, put sawdust in it to help. Although even on the most primitive of ATs there is still a filter of sorts, and the passages in the valve body are small enough to be clogged with that mess. How its supposed to work, hell if I know.

Chris Weber

so putting the old transmission fluid back in is even an option??

lol

man what a thought..

redbull-1

If that were an option, I suppose you could ask shops if they still had some old fluid or even post an ad on the internet... Lol.

Flagmichael

That is the most sensible explanation of the phenomenon I have ever heard. Some transmission professionals are adamant that flushing an old neglected transmission will plug things up with debris but since Honda transmissions shouldn't be flushed anyway I don't think that it what is happening to us.

onda22

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. There's a lot of interesting debate here...
Yes, the tranny is automatic as you guessed.
I should also note that before I did the flush, I took some fluid out - the equivalent of 1 1/2 bottles of lucas stop leak stop slip, which I then of course replaced with lucas stop leak (1 1/2 bottles worth).

Immediately after this, it ran worse. At the time, I assumed this was because I used non-honda t-fluid in it (the lucas stuff). So I panicked and quickly flushed it for the first time with the new dw fluid. Then I flushed for the 2nd time. That's where it's been ever since. Ah, and then I added some barrs transmission slip additive, which I think has helped it a little.

Another thing to note, is that on a cold start, it shifts pretty darn good, like it did before I ever flushed it, you can still hear it jump a little, but not jerking the whole car kind of jump.

Really, after driving it for 2 hours+ on freeway, etc.., then it will be extremely jerky when going from 0rpm - 2rpm.

I wonder why it works so well on cold startup... Hmm...


another thought I had was because I put lucas stop leak in there, that this has clogged the filter...

Also, I put a short ram intake in, that the throttle cable is sort of wrapped around.. it seems to move normally though?

This is what I'm going to do, I'm going to drain it again and keep the fluid this time. I'll inspect the fluid for any pieces or shards of metal. Then I'll pour some new fluid in to see if there is any change.

If it runs worse, I'll put my old fluid back in.
Then I'll go looking for some old and dirty 100K+ fluid from junkyards or mechanic shops, and I'll try this.


I see there are 2 schools of thought here:
1. Put new fluid in, new fluid can only help it not hurt it.
2. Keep old fluid in, it was somewhat working in harmony with the old fluid, obviously the old fluid is doing something that the new fluid isn't to make it work better...

On #1, you argue that I simply haven't flushed it ENOUGH and THOUROUGHLY. Well, on this 3rd flush, i can't have flushed it any thorougher, since it's been through the torque converter plenty, since I have driven it a lot now.
We'll see if you're right with the 3rd fill of this new fluid.

On the question of has it ever been flushed before..
I THINK the old owner mentioned flushing it at 75K or 100K. I believe they put the dextron stuff, not the good, fancy, expensive honda stuff. (Maybe that's a factor, that this tranny is used to different fluid)

If there isn't any improvement, I'll go with #2 and look for some old fluid.

Will I severely screw up my tranny even worse with all these refills of fluid?
I hope not...

Oh yea, as I said before.. I am NOT using atf-z1, nobody sells it anymore. I am using ATF-DW1 fluid which is the replacement, supposedly designed for the "newer hondas", I wonder if this is a factor as well in my poor tranny performance.

Thanks bearing with me.. I realize it must be frustrating to hear about noobs doing the wrong things to their cars... Well, I'm learning now, ain't I?

19Accord97

Did you FLUSH the system or did you simply drain the fluid out and refill with ~2.5 qts or whatnot?

The Dexron that the previous owner put in is NOT good for the transmission. Dexron or ANY other transmission fluid should NOT be used in Honda transmissions unless it is for a real emergency. Even then it should be removed asap. If it was driven for an extended period of time with the wrong fluid in it it could have caused damage.

The mixing or use of the new DW Honda fluid is okay. It is actually better than the previous fluid. Honda has already discontinued all production of the old stuff. As I have said before, if it okay to mix the old atf with the new stuff. I actually have 3 qts of the DW in my auto with the rest of the old ATF. I'll be doing another drain/refill tomorrow. I do a drain/refill every other oil change just to be on the safe side and ONLY use Honda atf.

Any sort of snake oils or "additives" (i.e. quick fix in a bottle) should never be used. I suspect that the Lucas additive is only amplifying the problem.

Finally, remember that even though you do a drain and refill you still have ALOT of old fluid still in the transmission. It is a general consensus to do a drain and refill, drive 50 miles, and repeat this at least 2 more times.

In all, though I dont like to say it, I would say your transmission is not going to be repaired/fixed unless it is rebuilt or replaced.

I apologize for going somewhat off-topic and arguing with the "noob" user previously.