dwllama

hi,
recently I pulled my valve cover and rocker arm assembly on my 96 f22b2. (this was to replace the lower spark plug tube seals) put it back together, adjusted the valves as well as possible from the instructions I could find online. Ran perfect for 3 days, then had a weird vibration at idle, kind of rhythmic, so I took the valve cover off and did the valve adjustment again and made sure I got the adjustment nuts good and snug (ive since read that they should be torqued to 14 ft/lbs but at the time I didn't have any torque figures for them). Car smoothed out a ton, but sometimes it still has a rough idle (usually more often when it's cold, but it's not consistent.) Also when it is idling rough if I turn the rear window defroster on it gets really rough. There is no weird rhythm to the rough idle now, just a steady vibration.

my mechanic (who didn't think I should do the spark plug tube seals on my own anyway and was sure the cam was going to move and mess up the timing) is convinced that my timing belt got loose (from removing the retaining pressure on the camshaft) and I need to tighten it. Does this seem like a reasonable possibility and if so how would I go about doing this? all the instructions I can find are for replacing the belt entirely (often as part of a much bigger project) and Im having a difficult time telling how much of the instructions are relevant.

thanks!

dwllama

anybody?

TouringAccord

from https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-accord-1990-2002-2/how-replace-timing-belt-timing-balancer-belt-water-pump-f22b1-1908944/...

Roader

Humor your mechanic by adjusting the belt tension. Autozone has instructions for doing so; it's pretty easy to do.What RPM does it idle, cold and warm? If the IACV and/or FITV isn't working right then the idle would drop too low when a load is placed on the engine, like the rear window defroster loading down the alternator.

Cleaning IACV, FITV and TB

dwllama

too sick right now to make good sense of the timing tensioning directions, think I will maybe have to watch a video or something (or at least come at it when my brain is working right)
but I checked the rpms at idle, when I start the car cold it idles about 1500rpm, once it's warmed up (ie after my 10 mile freeway drive to work) it sits around 750-800.

Roader

This is good. But when a load is put the engine (rear window defroster) the idle drops a lot lower? If so then the IACV probably isn't working right. Try cleaning IACV, FITV and TB.

Assuming you timed the camshaft correctly i.e., put the timing belt on the gear in exactly the same place it came off of, it's unlikely that belt tension has anything to do with your occasional rough idle problem.

dwllama

The idle does not drop when I turn on rear defroster, lights, windshield defroster, A/C, etc. It just gets rougher.

When weather and time allows I will try cleaning those.

I didn't pull the timing belt off when I did the seals on the RAA. I just pulled the RAA off and then put it back on (following the instructions in my Haynes as well as what I've read on here, watched eric the car guy, etc) The camshaft didn't visibly move.

Haven't had a chance yet try any fixes on it.

dwllama

Still havent between being busy and just finally getting over about a month of bronchitis. However I finally did get around to reading up on tensioning this belt and wanted to be sure I got the directions right.

First, it seems I only have to take off the upper timing cover if all I am doing is tensioning the timing belt, right?


If I understand correctly the adjustment nut is number 24 in this image.

so it sounds like what I want to do, is remove the valve cover and upper timing cover, set the engine at TDC (and make sure I didn't skip any teeth on the timing belt somehow!). I should be able to see the marks for the crank pulley without removing the lower cover correct?

The next step would be to loosen the timing adjustment nut (about 1/2 turn from what i've read), turn the engine* three teeth on the camshaft pulley**, and then retighten the bolt. Right?

* is the only practical way to turn the engine in this case by jacking the car and getting to the crank bolt through the wheel well? When doing the valves I used a wrench on the power steering pulley, but I don't know if that's a good idea/will work when adjusting the timing belt.

** Do I understand correctly that "3 teeth on the cam pulley" means that 3 teeth will go past the top of the head? In other words, the (exhaust side) TDC mark will be 3 teeth down from the edge of the head?

Hopefully I can borrow tools and find time to get this done this week. seems to me my idle is getting worse. might as well start troubleshooting with the stuff I messed with already and make sure it's all right.

dglassmyer

Sounds like you got it all correct except realize with the lower cover on you will not be able to see the crank pulley timing marks on the oil pump housing.
You will be aligning off of the outer pulley timing marks, the one tang by itself is TDC, and the timing tab on the lower cover.

Refer to the headgasket repair info in our FAQ, he sets his timing and tensions all with his lower cover on, should be a big help.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-accord-1990-2002-2/how-replace-headgasket-f22b2-2335661/

dwllama

Bugger i'm pathetic and weak and girly.... couldn't even budge that 14mm bolt. kind of a waste of the hour or two gathering my tools, removing and replacing the valve cover and timing cover at that point

Now I get to decide if I want to try to buy a bigger 14mm wrench (the one I used was only somewhere around 8 inches long, no decent leverage) or just pay my mechanic to do it. given how much it's starting to bother me the way it's running I may just have him do it cause I don't even have time to try again until friday.

Also, my cam pulley had this reddish/brownish dust on it. Is this normal or a problem?




That and it seems weird to me that the belt is not as wide as the pulley:

dglassmyer

The cam gear and belt width are fine.
Just take a 14mm wrench with one end open and the other closed and make an extension with another wrench like this.


It should come off easy as pie.
Good luck.

dwllama

Maybe I will try again, but I dont really trust the wrench I was using, anyway. it didnt seem snug on the nut and when reading about it sounds like not too uncommon to strip the head ...really don't want to do that.

maybe I can borrow my brother's garage wednesday night and give it a shot... too bad I can't leave it torn apart, b ut its also the only car I have to drive

It doesnt matter if the engine is warm or cold for this does it?

dglassmyer

Ahh the project daily driver, if only we could all have a backup car to drive...
You don't want the engine to be hot to the point you burn yourself but it won't make a difference tensioning the belt with it warm or cold.

dwllama

Ok so with a few better tools and the help of my brother I got the bolt loosened, moved the crank CCW so 3 teeth of the cam pulley moved past the edge of the head, retightened the bolt. idle didn't change. Is there any way when I'm doing that to be sure that I loosened the bolt enough or would I have to have taken the lower timing cover off for that?

next step I guess is to start cleaning stuff in my intake.

dwllama

well I tried to get into my intake today to clean fitv/iacv and found that my tools are inadequate for the job (even a 10mm socket that didn't need an adapter to fit on my ratchet may have made all the difference...)

but I did peek in my tb and spray some cleaner in there and wipe it out with a towel, held the throttle open and wiped around the butterfly a bit and it is plenty gunky inside.... so, since Im headed to my dad's house later this week (and the heaps of tools he's got) I'm gonna pick up a TB gasket and just pull the whole thing off and clean the heck out of it while I'm there.

Also, my FITV is not like the one in the walkthrough linked earlier. His has a brass cap on the end, whereas mine has a connection of some kind with a hose running to the engine block (I'm guessing coolant but I didn't open it). Still the same deal to take that end off and adjust inside? Also I think I need to replace that hose. it's swollen on one side. guessing I will just have to measure it up and buy some heater hose by the foot, hopefully it doesn't bend too much to not kink.


once I sprayed out what I could and left it open for a while to dry I put the battery back on and started it, didn't want to start (too much TB cleaner in the TB) but I did get it going after a few tries

let it run til it warmed up without touching anything.... now it wants to idle about 500 ??? took it for a couple miles drive including some freeway and when I got home it was more like 600-650 ish. guess I'll see what it does tomorrow after the computer gets another cold start and warm up on it. not going to worry about it too much given I'm going to pull the TB later this week anyway.


Edit: any reason I shouldn't just get a Felpro TB gasket from my work?

76 camaro car

If you think there's a possibility your cam sprocket could be off a tooth or two the easiest way to tell would be to put a timing light on it. Even if it were off one tooth it would still run but chances are you would hear valve rattle when accelerating.

dglassmyer

Nope, nothing wrong with Fel-pro.

dwllama

So I've been looking and I can't find any instructions for pulling the TB that say what to do with the throttle cables (although admittedly I haven't actually looked in my Haynes yet) In the link earlier in this thread ghostaccord mentions taking it off and its only 4 nuts - well that's simple, but that's not all that's connected to it. If i just remove and reattach do I need to adjust the cables at all? the way people talk about removing and replacing it it doesn't seem like a huge complicated thing to do.

TouringAccord

just remove the cables from the wheels they are attached to on the throttle body. As long as you don't mess with the adjustment nuts you won't need to readjust anything.

dwllama

Well I got around to doing this about a week ago, cleaned out the TB and IACV and FITV (the white ring thing in the FITV didn't seem to need adjusted, it was not loose when I tried to wiggle it or turn it with my fingernails)

Went carefully with the cables and once I figured them out I also realized there was only one way to put them back on again anyway. The only pain was getting the cruise control cable out of the plastic bracket. was afraid I was going to bend it but seems to be OK.

It did not resolve the rough idle, but I think my car appreciated it!
Also replaced the hose running from the side of the FITV. Looks like it was about time for it.

Just started cleaning (didn't think to take a totally "before" picture)

Given the wad of gunk/carbon on the screen of the IACV I think it was a bit overdue:

then done, I might have picked off a few more of those flaky black bits, my fingernails were the only thing that would scrape them off without scratching the inside of the TB:


got a few more pics up here if anybody's interested

One thing when I was cleaning the FITV, the cleaner dribbled past the white ring from one side to the other, is it supposed to do this or does this mean there's a bad seal and I should replace it?
Also, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is because I did not properly bleed the coolant after taking stuff off/replacing a hose, but now when I start the car (cold) the idle jumps to about 2k but within 3-5 seconds settles down to 1600-1700 (still a bit high for cold idle). Warm idle is OK around 700-800.

anyway, sometimes the roughness seems worse than others, once in a while its bad enough it almost seems like it is stumbling or almost missing. never a problem once moving, though.

I guess the next step I can think of would be to pry the EGR runner off and clean that out. Or, I guess because I replaced the dist cap/rotor a few days before the problem started, I should also double check those. Is it possible for a rotor to be installed not quite correctly enough for it to run but not perfectly? My dad put the cap and rotor on and while I trust him to do a competent job I didn't have my hands in there myself. 3 or 4 bolts though, easy check I guess.

Also, would a bad ECT cause that kind of rough idle? I managed to get the connector off and try to get a cold resistance reading on it but my multimeter is kinda junky and it barely flashed on the screen a couple times, don't know if I can trust the numbers it gave, but if I can they were pretty low for a cold test (1500-1700ohms)
Any other suggestions?

nus_dogg

A bad ECT sensor will cause hard to no start.

What you're describing seems to be more of a air/fuel mixture issue and as you gas the car to go, it smoothens out.

dwllama

The other possibility I had suggested to me the other day is a bad motor mount. Does that sound possible?

I've also started getting this clunking noise in the past week, only on braking or accelerating from a stop, or letting go of the gas after accelerating. but not every time. Seems kind of in the front/bottom but hard to say. Seems like a motor mount might explain both that and the vibration at idle? is there any better/other way to check the mounts besides having one person rev the engine while I watch it, and actual physical examination of the mounts themselves?

bob441

Clean the Egr ports (30 minute job) My 94 did the same thing and when u turned the A/C on it was even worse and it runs alot better now also