jb2wheels

Hello and thanks for checking this out. I normally post in the EF Civic section since I have a 90 Civic Wagon, but I'm working on my son's 91 Accord this week.

The car is an automatic LX 4 door with about 150000 miles. It actually runs well most of the time. However, it's started a couple of new tricks I hope someone can help me with:

Symptom #1 = 1st start of the day takes a lot of cranking - like 15-20 seconds instead of 1 second once it's been run. Also, except for symptom 2 below, it idles great. Fast idle seems to work fine during warm up.

Symptom #2 = a miss that is most readily apparent at idle. By "miss" I don't mean a rough idle, I mean it's like the ignition is shut off for a split second. Sometimes it does it 2 or 3 times in a row and the engine dies. It almost always restarts right away - it has for me but my son says he had a real hard time restarting it once. It's very erratic - like, when sitting at one stop light, all is well, idle is rock steady in D at about 800 RPM. next light it cuts out. Happens when it's cold, but a little more frequently when warmed up. Having the AC on or other load (like turning the steering wheel while stopped) makes it worse.

My first instinct says the fuel pump is a problem, but I never notice a miss under power (like foot on the floor accelerating) or cruise once above about 1500 RPM. Normally, when I've lost a fuel pump, it dies when it gets hot then once it cools off you can drive again.

I checked the fuel pressure and it was 28 PSI with the vac line on the regulator and 40 PSI with the vac line off. I changed the fuel filter and now my gauge reads 0 PSI with the engine running so I think I screwed up my gauge somehow. Anyway, fuel filter did not fix the problem.

Next I yanked the main relay and re-soldered it even though this really does not sound like a main relay problem. I do know the main relay was replaced shortly before we got the car (about 2 years ago).

The EGR valve was also replaced recently while chasing another problem that turned out to be a poorly adjusted transmission kickdown cable (TC was not locking up correctly).

The ground on the thermostat housing is intact and tight.

I checked out the ignition switch and see no obvious scorching or melting. It looks like an aftermarket part - like it's been replaced before.

The distributor has a "manufactured in 2005" sticker on it so it's been replaced before.

My next steps are:
- voltage check at idle
- check all battery cables and grounds and alternator cable
- IAC clean

Anybody have any other ideas before I spend a bunch of real time and money on this?

I have not completely ruled out the fuel pump, but I really am not in a hurry to drop the tank.
The EGR ports have caps in them and have probably never been chased. I'm not in a hurry to do this since it's a very intermittent problem.
I might pick up a junkyard distributor to try out to see if the symptoms change before a drop $150 on a new one.

Any thoughts/pointers similar issues solved?

Thanks - JB

jb2wheels

I forgot to add:

no CEL
no codes (when I short the code reading plug, the CEL comes on but no blinking)
no blinking LED on ECU

when it sputters / misses, all the lights and gauges work fine and read normally

phootbag

For symptom 1 I would investigate fuel pressure a bit more. I wonder if letting the vehicle sit overnight with a bad check valve in the fuel pump is letting the pressure leak down. Hook up the guage and cycle the key. Turn the key off and come back in a half hour or so and see if the pressure has dropped.

A stuck fuel injector can do this but I imagine you would be having a more consistent misfire problem while driving if this were the case. Though, is possible.

Symptom 2 Not sure. Intermittent RPM drops or stalling is usually due to something like a bad connection somewhere. I've seen loose igniter connectors ( Those rediculous spade connectors on the terminals of the ignitor ). Probably not a failing part.

Mystery problems are fun aren't they?

jb2wheels

Thanks phootbag - I'll update as I make progress.

gcbrandt

Fuel Pump/Filter?

jb2wheels

Filter is new with no change.

Fuel pump is suspect but my gauge is not working right. It reads 0 PSI while the car is running. I assume it's wrong and there's no way the car would run with 0 PSI

jb2wheels

I decided to put a fuel pump in it to address the excessive cranking on first start issue. Parts are on the way. Tank is nearly full - should be fun.

phootbag

Too bad your guage is busted. Replacing parts without enough evidence to condemn them sucks. Good luck.

CyborgGT

I'm having the hard first start issue as well, and was guessing it was part of the fuel system (I've got new plugs, wires, and full distributor). I'll wait to see what putting a new pump in does for you before I get one myself, but it looks like I may be able to help you a bit with the install: at least in my '92 sedan, there's an access hatch behind the rear seat. Now, I haven't cracked it open yet myself, but you should be able to lift the pump through there and not go through the hassle of dropping the tank. At least it was a big enough hole in the Buick I helped work on a while back.

As for the miss, I don't know, since your distributor is new. The igniter unit in them seems to be a common failure among 4th-gen Accords (I frequent CB7Tuner.com... specialty sites get you real familiar with common problems real quick). My engine once slowed enough to die at a light, and missed pretty bad at 80mph or so until I replaced the entire distributor. Recently though, the low idle dipping has begun to return, and a faulty fuel pump sounds like it could easily cause this.

skracer13

Check iginition componets coil, igniter, plugs, cap, rotor. Coil Specs: primary 0.6-0.8 OHMs secondary 14k-22k OHMs. then test igniter. Alot of miss and hard start are due to ignition system.

jb2wheels

Thank guys. I bought a new fuel pressure gauge since they're cheap and I'd rather not drop the tank. I'll recheck tonight along with the ignition stuff and report back.

I have not checked tank access myself. I read the access hole is for the gauge sender and not the pump. I'll check that, too.

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

why not see if the HG is bad and causing hard starts first? and i'm assuming you checked the timing already? you sound like a descent mechanic already but trying to cover the basics first. use a block tester and see if thats the problem first. if so then the HG is leaking coolant into the cylinders from the coolant system pressure when you shut it off after driving. the coolant in there is causing the plugs to go out as it warms up and tries to push the coolant out the valves. its free to rent the tester at autozone and takes 5 minutes. i would do that first. then move on. dont sound like a fuel pump issue to me though. and dropping the tank is always fun. especially when its got alot of gas in it. be careful doing this. if its in your garage turn off your pilot on your water heater. keep some hose pinch pliers handy. i have two from sears that i use just for this. they cost like 50 bucks for the two but they are very handy for pinching fuel lines to keep them from leaking.

jb2wheels

Thanks for the tips, Ricks. I'll put the HG on the list of things to check.

I did get a new fuel pressure gauge today and it looks to me like the fuel system is fine.
Turn key on, pressure jumps to 40+psi, holds for a second, then starts to drop. This repeats over and over.
Start engine, pressure is about 32psi. Remove vac hose from regulator and pressure jumps over 40psi.

So...on to ignition.

Coil primary reads about 1.0 ohm. Hard to pin it down - when I connect my leads to one another, I get about 8 oms so when I see about 9 ohms on the coil I figure I'm getting about 1 in reality. Slightly out of spec but...

Coil secondary reads open.

I'll swap the coil and see if I have any troubleshooting skills at all.

Thanks again - next update after coil swap.

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

if i remember correct...you cant check the secondary coil on these cars (i have a 91 accord too)

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

if you have access to a distributor you can borrow from a friend see if you can use it to test your coil. if you can, swing by autozone and use the block tester before buying a coil. just my opinion

skracer13

Terminal A(+) to B(-) to check primary, A to Secondary winding terminal (nipple)is to check your secondary.

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

you know i knew there had to be a way to check this but i kinda was wanting a new part anyway when mine went out LOL but thanks for that info

phootbag

When you turned the key on and watched fuel pressure rise to a normal psi, fuel pump then shuts off and you said the fuel pressure began to drop. If you can watch the needle on the guage actually drop before your eyes I am suspecting you have a fuel leak down problem causing the hard starts.

I suspect either a leaking fuel injector or a faulty check valve in the fuel pump. I imagine you'd have some drivability issues with a leaky injector. You wouldn't have driving-down-the-road drivability issues with a faulty fuel pump check valve.

To be sure, does the fuel pressure continue to drop to zero or near zero?

skracer13

Sometimes i get the same way, or just being too lazy. lol

jb2wheels

Fixed.

I swapped out the distributor for a known good used one. Both problems gone. Started right up in about 1/2 second and spent 45 minutes in traffic with no issues.

I don't know what part of the distributor fixed the problem. Based on my measurements, probably the coil.

Thanks for your suggestions.

phootbag

Interesting. Well, awsome! And, thanks for posting the repair.