zennx2k3

A couple of weeks back I posted an intermitant start problem on my accord (92, DX, 4dr, 5spd). It starts fine in the cold, runs for a while, then stalls out. Will not cut back on. I decided it could be the main relay. Ordered a brand new OEM relay, installed it carefully and correctly, but ended up with the same problem. Starter works fine and there is spark.

When I try to start the car, the check engine light comes on for 2 seconds, and I also hear the main relay click twice. This is where I would expect the fuel pump to prime:

In the afternoon or if it is warm, I get no fuel pump priming, therefore no start.
At night or when it is cooler, I get a "gurgling" sound from the pump, sometimes will start for 10 minutes or so and die.
When it is downright chilly and frosty, fuel pump primes normally, and starts right up and runs for 15+ min, then eventually dies.

I'm told that since the CEL goes off and I get two clicks from the dash that my relay is working. Any ideas as to why I'm still getting the same problem? Did I get shipped a bad OEM relay? Or is it time to move on to other problems?

Help would be greatly appreciated! Thx

EDIT:

Just went outside, it's rather cold, and I got nothing from the pump. I get the clicks from the relay, CEL comes on for 2 secs, no pump priming. So now I'm worse of (or maybe getting closer to the real problem). Anything I can test for power at the pump? I read somewhere where I can temp jump wires together.


Modified by zennx2k3 at 4:02 PM 11/10/2008

P_Adams

What you have to determine is:
Is the ECM commanding the Fuel Pump side of the Master relay to shut the pump off or
Is the pump itself failing / failed.
If you can identify the lead going from the Master Relay to the pump, you can probe that wire with a 12v test light.
Turning the key on;
If the indicator lights and no pump ....

Has this car been hit in the rear end?
This car is equipped with a fuel shut off valve (Refer #8)
http://www.hondaautomotivepart...+TANK

zennx2k3

Thank you for the reply. I don't have a test light (although I'm sure I could find/buy one somewhere) but it sounds like something I want to try. Do you know off hand which wire or slot in the relay is for the fuel pump? I don't have a problem paying for a new pump, if that's really what the problem is. I was told that a once a fuel pump is dead, it's dead. The intermitent starting is what gets me (however after the relay replacement it's just not priming period lol).

Funny that you meantion getting rear ended. The car was hit hard in the back, but thanks to good ol' steel, my bumper just got scratched up a bit ('00 Ford Taurus front end however, was NOT pretty). Now that happened a year ago, and I've had no problems otherwise. Is there something I should look for? I was amazed you said something like that though, weird that a shut off valve would "kick" now?

EDIT: I have a multimeter. Barring using a test light, can I probe using the meter on certain wires/slots? Know which ones?


Modified by zennx2k3 at 6:23 PM 11/10/2008

P_Adams

A multimeter will work, just set it to accomodate voltages up to 20.
Off hand I don't know which wire / pin out is required, but I'll see what I can scare up for you.

The reason I asked about the rear hit was; "some" cars were equipped with a fuel pump shutoff in the case of an accident or a roll over. They originally wired it to the oil pressure sensor in the mistaken belief that the engine would quit if upside down (NOT). True, it would after 15 (or so) minutes when the engine siezed from no lubrication, but by that time 20 gallons of fuel had pumped from the tank. Since then the fuel shutoff valve was controlled by an accellerometer which sensed when a car was hit. This car has a shut off valve (item 8 in the illustration). I'm really just trying to find any components which would keep the pump from operating properly. This whole last paragraph may be an exercise in futility but I'm trying to cover as many bases as I can

P

hon2984

The harness is on the passengerside of the trunk closest to the back seat, underneath the carpet.

zennx2k3

Thanks so far guys. I'm trying to narrow it down over here. This is my daily driver so I'm trying to get this one running again (been using my girlfriends ride for a month and a half, I live close to work, lol).

In response to the first reply, since I've driven this car for a year solid since my "accident" can I rule out the shut off valve then?

Next, the harness you speak of is for my fuel pump, correct? Would I be wise to test for power there first, then work my way back?

Thanks.

Anyone else reading at this point:
CLIFFS:
1) Car wont start unless it's cold (occasionally), thought it was main relay
2) New OEM relay, "clicks" twice, 2 second CEL on key turn.
3) Now Fuel Pump wont prime PERIOD (cold, hot, sideways, I do not like it Sam I Am)
4) Car has spark, battery, starter in working contdition otherwise. Investigating further options.....

P_Adams

At this point everything is suspect, so I wouldn't discard the possibility - but check the obvious easy stuff first.
Checking for electrical power near the pump (or at the pump) would be the ideal. It's easily accessable thru a removable plate on the front of the trunk floor, up near the rear seat I believe.

P

zennx2k3

Ok so I'm back to square one guys. This morning it was extra frosty outside, and sure enough, the fuel pump kicked right on and I started my car......for 15 minutes.

So, I'm looking for some sort of annoying connection that's either loose, or come unsoldered. It is not the Main Relay.

Any place as a good suggestion to start looking?

Otherwise I'll report back with findings.

Help!

P_Adams

Has this car ever stalled / shut off while driving for no apparent reason?

P

zennx2k3

No it's never cut off for no apparent reason. In fact the car was running like a champ one month ago (isn't that always how it is?), then I came outside one day and it turned over and refused to start. Started noticing that my fuel pump wasn't coming on, unless it was cold. Changed the realy.....etc etc, now I'm here.

zennx2k3

Ok so here's the current update:

I ran all over the car with the multimeter today, started under the dash, I'm getting a good signal from the relay.

I also checked the wires going back toward the tank. I removed the floor maitenence cover that exposed some sort of connection on the tank (in the trunk, close to the back seat, passenger side, fuel meter unit maybe?), and got a full strong signal when the key was turned on.

Checked the harness going to the tank (also toward the back seat, near the trunk, passenger side) and got good readings. During all this testing, my fuel pump came on (barely, the gurgling sound again), or just didn't run all together. No amount of "tinkering" or messing with the wires seemed to affect this intermitent behavior.

So I'm going to go ahead and say that there is good connections and good voltage to and from the realy and the fuel pump. Somewhere there is something preventing the fuel pump from cutting on all the time, and either "gurgling" around, or running smooth for about 15 minutes.

Now, any other ideas? I'd hate to go ahead and replace the fuel pump if there's some loose *** wire dangling just out of reach on the pump in the tank, but I guess if I have to drop the tank anyway, I might as well stick a new one in there.

I just don't want to give up on the pump if it still "works" from time to time. I'd feel better if I could just "see" what's going on. Lol.

Someone have a better answer?


Modified by zennx2k3 at 12:39 PM 11/11/2008

GlassJAw

Have you pulled the fuel pickup out of the tank and checked it for debris??

P_Adams

... a bad ground?
I'm just throwing that out there.

Honda's pretty good at protecting and routing their harnesses, so damage wouldn't be the first thing I'd think of; BUT
Perhaps it's time to consider the pump. If you've got both a good power sourse and a reliable ground, then the only thing left is either something floating around in the tank (intermittantly blocking off the fuel pickup) or the pump itself.

zennx2k3

Hmm I guess it could be time for a fuel pump.......however I'll try one more thing.

The device that I was looking at in the floor maitenence hole in the trunk, what exactly was that?

And two, if I wanted to check the fuel pickup for debris, that would involve dropping the tank and pulling the pump correct?

Last ditch effort.....thanks so far.