sonscar

This is the third time I'm replacing this seal (91209-612-003) on my son's 2001 4 cylinder Accord, and they always seem to leak. Does anyone know what the trick is to install them without leakage? I use a hook to puncture and remove the old seal and then tap the new one in using a socket to push the seal in around the control shaft.





Control shaft bushing is item #10.

MAD_MIKE

Check that the vent for the transmission is not restricted or clogged. If pressure is building up it may be blowing out the seal.

sonscar

Thank you for your suggestion, though I'm not sure where the vent is located. I'd appreciate if you'd point it out for me.

MAD_MIKE

It is under/hidden by the trans mount. Some cars came with an extension tube.

Look at the second stud labeled #12, note where it screws in, look directly below on the lower ledge. That 90° bent tube is the vent. Make sure nothing is inside it like a critter, spiderweb, or debris.

sonscar

Sorry for the delay, but my son didn't get home before dark last Sunday. I looked at it today. I wish I had known it was the vent line that was connected to the starter, as I've replaced that starter twice. Once I found it, all was fine, and there is no blockage in that vent.

I checked to see if there was any movement on the control shaft that would imply bad bearings, but it just rotates and doesn't move any other direction, so the bearings must be OK. That tells me added movement (other than rotation) hasn't led to the early demise of that seal.

Any other suggestions you can think of?

slowcivic2k

There is no bearing on the manual valve rod. Are you sure your not leaking fluid from the converter seal?

I'll walk you through a check list:

1: Inspect the breather tube as pointed out before. The starter may have its own tube, they are not the same, do not confuse them.

2: Remove the inspection cover and look for evidence of fluid in the converter housing. If you find fluid higher than the manual valve rod, The converter seal is your leak point.

3: Remove the manual valve seal, taking care not to damage the shaft itself. Upon removal, inspect the shaft for wear grooves, rust, and other damage. If you have a wear ridge:

Replace the manual valve rod, OR

Install the new seal squarely and do not drive it in all the way. This will allow the seal to form a new sealing zone. The depth of the seal is not that critical.

A trick to installing the seal is to freeze the seal, lubricate the shaft, and when you are ready, simply hand press the seal onto the housing. The cooling will contract the seal, and allow it to effortlessly slide into position. Avoid pounding the seal in when you can, as this ensures you do not damage the seal. Any rust or damage to the shaft must be corrected to prevent damaging the seal itself.

sonscar

I appreciate the checklist. From what I can see in the FSM, the converter housing seal can only be replaced if the transmission is removed from the vehicle. I'm not up to doing that. I'll change anything that doesn't require actual removal of large components.

Let me go over your checklist.

1) The vent hose for the transmission is attached to the top of the starter solenoid, but it is merely an attachment to keep it in place, not a connection to the starter. It is clear.
2) I searched the FSM for inspection cover, and nothing came up. Please let me know where this cover is, how to access it and how to diagnose the problem. Though there is a light film of ATF on the bottom of the transmission, the only place I've seen actual droplets is on the shift cable cover.
3) Thank you for the installation instructions for the shaft seal. That is helpful.

I look forward to learning more about the inspection cover and how to use it. Thank you.

slowcivic2k

There should be a steel plate that uses small bolts and attaches to the transmission between the oil pan and the transmission. It is how you remove the torque converter bolts. If you have oil on this plate that is colored like ATF, you have a converter seal leak.

The only real fix if that is the case is to remove the transmission, inspect the front end of the converter, the bearings, and the seal for damage and replace as needed.

sonscar

From what I understand, you're asking me to look at the exposed metal panel between the oil pan and the transmission to see if there are any leaks, not removing any inspection hatch to look inside. Am I looking for leaks or any light film of oil covering the plate? I may see a light film, but there definitely has never been any leaks in that area. As I mentioned before, the only droplets I see are on the shift cable cover. If there aren't any leaks, would you recommend I torque these bolts? If so, what torque do you recommend?

slowcivic2k

I am telling you to remove that cover and tell me if there is oil on the inside of it.

sonscar

Could you give me a diagram or photo, so i make sure I take apart the correct part? I can't do it this weekend, but I plan to do it next weekend..

MAD_MIKE

AFAIK Honda parts diagrams do not show the converter cover.
Crawl under car with the under tray removed. Look up at where the trans attaches to the engine. You will see Exhaust pipe, oil pan and then the bottom of the Torque converter housing. Perpendicular to the road will be a sheet metal cover, remove it and you should be able to see the drive/flex plate. If the edge of it is covered in trans fluid, most likely the O ring for the Torque Converter or oil seal for the pump has gone and is now slinging ATF out.

sonscar

Thanks for the info. To make it easier to find, can you tell me whether the access cover is toward the front, back, center, high, low, etc. It can be hard to find things when we don't know exactly what to look for. It took me a while to find the vent, though it was right in front of me once I identified it.

MAD_MIKE

This is an image with- the oil pan removed, torque converter and control cable covers removed on a 94-97 Accord. Your car will be similar. Note the differential that will be at the back of the trans on the passenger side.

sonscar

I gather that the drive/flex plate is the one that looks like a large toothed flywheel. There will be an inspection plate I'll remove to look at that and see if I can see any ATF. I'll give it a shot this weekend. Thank you.

sonscar

My son is finally around to allow me to look at his car. I can't see a steel inspection plate, but here is what I do see:





Engine Stiffener (H)

The bolts seem to be overtorqued, but I'll see if I can break them free without shearing off the bolts. There may be a plate (A) behind that, but I can't tell till I remove the stiffener.





stiffener





drips from leak





Shift cable cover

sonscar

OK, I don't think there is a leak other than the seal, but I'll let you look and make that decision. I can see dirt beneath the cover, but no sign of fluid.















I know it looks like fluid to the left of the gear, but that is just reflection from the light. I put my finger on it and nothing came off.

sonscar

I appreciate all the help, especially the suggestion to freeze the seal before installing it. It has been a week since I did the work, and I just got under the car. Nothing is leaking. Thanks again.

hanqw1900

Hi Sonscar,
Can you share how to remove and install the oil seal (91209-612-003)? Do you need to drain the transmission fluid before open the cover?
Jiangao

sonscar

Following the instructions given by slowcivic2k is your best bet, especially the suggestion of freezing the new seal before installing it. The freezing helps it go in very easily. I found the easiest way to remove the old seal was to screw a drywall screw into the old seal and then pry it out. I must admit I've done this twice on the car, and both times were just short term fixes, as the leaking came back. It's not a difficult job, and you don't need to drain the fluid first. You'll only lose a few drops of fluid by following the instructions. I gave up on continuing to replace the seal, as very little fluid is lost from this seal, and it is just as easy to check it on a regular basis and top off the fluid.

Billy Fung

My 92 civic automatic transmission control shaft was oil lea

ked