FIREBIRD71

Need some advice. A little long but here is want transpired so far with my Honda Dealer. I own a 96 Accord EX 2.2, automatic. About two months ago, I had a mechanic/friend change my timing belt and water pump at 130K. At that time as preventative measure he replaced my cam seal, harmonic balance seal, and one more seal in that area. After a week of having the car back and I noticed a oil leak. I called him and told him I have a small engine oil leak coming from the timing belt cover. He told me to take it to the dealer since he had a tough time getting one or two of the seals in place and refunded the money I paid him.

I took it to a Honda Dealer about two months ago. At that time they said it was the cam seal leaking and replace my cam seal. I drove the car home and the next day noticed it was still leaking engine oil in the same area. I took it back to them and they called me up and said it was the cam seal again. They said to fix the problem they needed to replace the cam shaft. They wanted $800 for their cam shaft but said I could provide an aftermarket or one I could find as well. They said the thought the cam was scratched or scored. At that time I did not want to put that much more money into the car and told them my friend recommended a cam shaft seal saver that should fix the issue. The Dealer said OK, and put the $30 National Seal cam shaft seal saver and a new cam seal. The next day noticed a leak again from the same area. Back to the Dealer.

This time the Dealer said the same thing about the only sure way to fix it would be to replace the cam shaft. Again they said I could provide the cam. I did and found a new Honda cam shaft online through Honda Parts Unlimited for $330 shipped to the dealer. Now here is a little twist, while the cam shaft was pending the shipping to the Dealer, the Dealer service rep. called me with a proposal. He said he just talked with his parts manager and had a super deal he wanted to let me know about. The proposal was that the parts manager has a new machine shop head that was all redone with a new cam shaft that he wanted to clear off his inventory and it would only cost me about $50 more then what it would cost me for the labor to install the camshaft that was being shipped and the $330 cost I paid for that camshaft, that I could return for a refund. So before I paid $330 for camshaft and $350 labor to them for installing it, making total $680 to fix car. Now I return ordered camshaft and pay them total of $720 for the rebuilt head and new camshaft to include labor. The service rep. said he was shocked the parts manager would let the rebuilt head and new cam go at that price but since he had it on the books for a few years that was the deal. I said yes.

They called me and I took the car home tonight and when I pulled in my driveway after the 45 minute trip, I checked and I still have a oil leak in that area. The Dealer was closed but I called just to leave a voice mail so they would get it first thing Friday morning and bring it back to them but here are two more problems that I noticed that I never had the problem before. Now my cruise control will not engage but the lights come on and my gas pedal is a lot stiffer and harder to press down compared to before. Any thought?

Does anyone have any advice on what else I should do? What if the Dealer says they can't fix it or tries again and it is not fixed? What should I expect? The Dealer has been good so far, to include giving me a loaner Honda the past two times I brought it back.

Thanks In Advance,
Anthony

TOO MUCH TORQUE

for sure not the dizzy o ring? are they putting sealant around the cam seal? make sure it also isnt the valve cover gasket....

can we see pictures of this leak...?

FIREBIRD71

I would have to ask if they are putting sealant around the cam seal. I know it was never the valve cover gasket. I could check that from the top side. No pics since the leak is inside the timing belt cover and the Dealer takes apart.

P_Adams

Check that the oil pressure sending unit located directly above the oil filter isn't leaking. It can sometimes show up in the same area as front cover seal(s) leaks.
When this fixes your leak, present them with the bill and suggest they start thinking about refunding some of your money.
I would have replaced nothing without diagnosing the leak with florescent dye and a black lite first.
As an addendum; I would suggest you call back this "factory rep" and validate that he was indeed the one you spoke to. They never get involved in out-of-warranty vehicles like this.

P

96redexcivic

Hey you know about the lemon law right? Good time to use it.

bryse68

could it be the balance shaft seal? those are prone to leak oil, these is also a service bulletin about installing a seal holder to prevent the seal from popping out and causing oil to leak

kidcool1977

knowledge is power OP,the way i see the dealershipp RAPED YOU, there is no way you would need all of that service on an accord. I'd try calling honda of america on their ASSES

FIREBIRD71

Update. I picked my car up last Friday. The Dealer said my crankshaft seal was the cause of the leak this time. Replaced at no cost since everything at this point has 12 months parts and labor. They also fixed whatever they did with the cruise and gas pedal and it is back to normal BUT once again, I drove it home and checked underneath first thing when I parked and it has a leak again. Now I took it back for the forth time to see what the Dealer finds this time.

Last time they said they checked the EGR and PCV to make sure nothing was blocked. No engine codes. There were none. I asked the service rep. what would cause the crankcase seal to leak? He said it had a ripple and thought it could be from the increase engine pressure since they installed the new head and the past repaired oil leak repairs- rear main, oil pan, and camshaft seal. The harmonic balancer seal was replaced a few months ago when they did all three seals but has never leaked at this time. This also is the first time the camshaft seal did not leak and the first time the crankcase seal did since all the repairs.

They ran the engine dye last time. Now, I am waiting to find out what they find this time. I'll post an update when I find out. Thanks for the reply's.

kidcool1977

it's a shame and these ppl are supposed to me ASE certified (what a joke). If you were mechanically inclined you could solve this problem yourself OP, have you tried the above post given to you by the H-T members on this site?.

FIREBIRD71

Update #2, 8-18-09- I checked with the Dealer on Tuesday on the status of my car. The service rep. said it was the crankshaft seal again and they were going to replace it and take it for a test drive to see if it is fixed.

During the conversation he also said it could be a scored crankshaft and that means the car would need a new short block. I do not know if he was feeling me out for my reaction but told him this is spiraling out of control and I have already spent a ton of money dealing with the camshaft oil leak and now it the crankshaft leak. I said if this does not fix it , I will have to get with the service manager and someone higher in the chain for a full review. It makes no sense that the crankshaft seal was not leaking prior to last week and now their talking about the possibility of a new short block if the crankshaft is scored and would keep leaking.
I am waiting to find out the outcome today- Wed. 8-19-09, but with the history so far it does not seem good. I did find the number to Honda Auto customer service and plan on calling them next if this next seal replacement does not fix the oil leak.

kidcool1977

wow, the rep. actually told you might need a new block LOL OMG, i feel like choking that rep. This is why i hate dealerships they will do anything to get money out of you and your situation confirms this. It is time you get STERN and demand answers or else you will be sorry.

good luck

YeuEmMaiMai

F2X can leak from balance shaft seal and there is a retainer that needs to be installed. have they checked the balance shaft seals?

FIREBIRD71

What do you mean by - F2X? My guess is your referring to the 2.2L Vtec Motor. The only thing the dealer said last week and yesterday was it was the crankshaft seal was leaking. I will call them today and mention that about the retainer bryse68 and you mentioned. Also I will ask again about the engine dye check the P Adams mentioned.

Thanks...

FIREBIRD71

UPDATE #3-
Today- Thurs- 8-20-09. I spoke to the Dealer to see what they found out. They said they ran a engine dye and cheked all areas. They said my crankcase front seal is still where the leak is at. They said the only fix at this time would be to replace the short block. They said there must be a micro score between the crankshaft seal and the engine block that the engine pressure is finding a place to leak. They also said since all of the other oil gaskets and seals have been replaced and the new rebuilt head would make the car have more internal pressure and the oil leak in the crankcase seal is where the weak point is. They said the old crankshaft seal can overtime score that area and when the seal is replaced the area shows the weak spot and you have an oil leak.

Has anyone had this experience?

Any fixes besides #1- Living with the oil leak or #2 Spending about $3000 bucks for a short block and labor costs?

I called around asking a few machine shops if what they said is possible and the two I called both said yes. One said to remove the crankshaft seal and use emery cloth to polish the area on the bloack where the seal goes and then use silicone and place a new seal on and that might fix it instead of a new short block? Does anyone think that might work or have any other ideas????

Thanks Again,
Anthony

YeuEmMaiMai

F2x = any of the F series motors used in the accord. the balance shaft seal pops out and you get a massive oil leak

kidcool1977

can you take pics of this leak, hopefully someone on here can help you out. 3 grand is a hell of alot of money to spend (i wouldn't). my accord is a 94 and i never had this issue
and i am almost certain the dealer is looking to make a good chunk of change on you. Are you certain it's not the oil pan gasket and how bad is the leak is it a drip, or drip drip drip?.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...13SV40_E13.gif
heres one posibility to your leak
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...13SV40_E14.gif
#31 (just speculating)

P_Adams

Not on a Honda, I haven't. My personal ride has 224,000+ on it and doesn't leak a drop, neither does my wife's EX Civic at 109,000. Even the '88 spare never leaked from the bottom.

I have seen it on extremely high milage domestics however. Felpro used to offer a replacement front timing cover seal (GM applications) which repositioned the seal lip to an undamaged portion of the crank journal.

Ask around, you might find something similar.

I'd also suggest ferreting out any local independent garages in your local area that specialize in Honda/Acuras. You may get a different answer from them....

P

TOAB

That dealership is taking you for a ride.

FIREBIRD71

Has anyone used with success a Micro Sleeve crankshaft repair sleeve? Their web-site is - www.silver-seal.com/product/MS359 . It looks like it worth a try for my situation.

TouringAccord

to me, it sounds like issues you might be having could have been started by the first mechanic that did your oil change and seals. You said he told you he had some trouble getting them in right? How did you remove them? If he wasn't careful he could have damage the camshaft like the dealer told you before and could have damaged the block like they are saying now. Though I agree it's fishy that the crankshaft seal didn't leak before and now it's leaking, if it was damaged/scored it should have started leaking after it was replaced when the damage occurred. So I would try calling that mechanic and ask how he went about removing the seals.

As P said above, find another shop and get another opinion.

ken9

It seen like your buddy mess up something on your vehicle. I couldn't trust friend to fix my vehicle. If you think you gonna spend over $3000 then might as well get another vehicle. Something there must be damage..

TouringAccord

then you either (a) don't have very good friends or (b) your friends don't know much about cars.

no offense, just saying...

I've worked on my friends/families cars before, but I don't touch anything unless I know what I'm doing.

hell, about a month ago or so I stopped by a fellow HT members house because they couldn't get the crankshaft seal out of their F23 and asked if I could help them. I had never met the person before but stopped by and got the seal out within a couple minutes. no biggie, but I wouldn't have done something like that unless I knew what I was doing.

P_Adams

Just as most of us don't contribute to threads we have no background in. I don't participate in most H22 swap threads. I've no interest in it, and I won't comment on it other than what I may have read and know to be true.
That's only fair to everyone; who needs another "guru" anyway

Now, if Honda got serious about the youth market and came out with a line of high performance crate motors; THAT I could get into.

P

FIREBIRD71

I learned a few things from this.....First, Leave the seals alone if there not leaking. At the time it was a preventive measure since the timing belt was being serviced. Second from making several phone calls to machine shops or other mechanics a common denominator was the original seals can cause a grove or scorn and when their removed and a new seal is in place a leak can occur. Not always but does happen. Also as mentioned in posts above the mechanic doing the work can also cause a problem. In my case seal or mechanic error or both who knows.
I picked up the car from the dealer Friday- 8-21-09, and it is now at another automotive shop for a second opinion. The leak at this point is more of a annoyance. Since checking a week ago it was still on the full mark. If this other place can fix it with or without the micro-sleeve at a reasonable price, then I'll fix it. Otherwise if the price is to high, I'll just monitor my oil level to see how long it takes to before I need to add and live with the annoyance of a small oil leak.
I am at the point of no return with all the upgrades I had done this year. The car runs great, A/T shifts smooth w P's help, super gas milage, with four new disks breaks w/ rotors, body work and paint job, new tires, total tune-up, new suspension parts, new struts, new tires, new battery, new head and camshaft, recent timing belt change with water pump, new sealed hubs and bearings, new radio, new cat., new window driver window....... I bought the car to keep and restore and this leak is my last battle at this point.

Thanks for the input. I'll post an final update when my second opinion comes in.

FIREBIRD71

Update 8-30-09

Well I had my second opinion. It was done at my local Firestone where I had always good luck in the past and a good mechanic that works there that pays attention to detail. He said it was apparent that someone used a chisel and a hammer. Probably using it to remove the old seal and missed and scored the crankshaft. The only reasonable fix was to use emery cloth and polish the nick areas and then he installed new seal. He said I had a 50/50 chance the leak won't come back. After their road test it had no leaks, which is the first big test. Now I'll keep my fingers crossed and at this point it appears fixed since every other time it was leaking.
I am wondering why the Dealer did not use emery cloth and polish the nicks like Firestone did? They only said scored area and not fixable without changing short block? Seems odd. From the facts at hand it is apparent my backyard mechanic caused the damage. Honda uses drivers to take out the old seals and my friend would not of had those and used a chisel type tool.
Lesson learned, pay the extra bucks and take it to the Dealer or shop like Firestone that you trust in the first place. That way you can point the finger only at one person when there is a mistake and have a 12 month warranty on labor and parts.
Thanks for the helpful postings. My car is completed now with no oil leaks. Yeah! Here are my PICS at photo bucket site. After 8 months of updates to include body work and new paint and spending to much money around $7000 that includes the $3k for buying car. Here is the end result.............
http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/q...1996%20Accord/


Anthony