ttcheung97

you nailed it. However, as for the time it actually takes to get it to successfully start has varied. sometimes it'll take only a few tries; other times it's been more like 25 minutes.

so YOu say it's the relay? Who suggested that culprit to you?

RallyAccord

a few people on my local honda forum, and 2 mechanics not sae certified.


this is what i do to cure it, i put the key to on, and wait, wait so that all the info can get sent to the relay or let it work or what ever it does.. then crank over, make sure to listen for the fuel pump to turn on, its a high pitch wine sound from the gas tank.. hope this works.. thankfully it stopped doing this with my car.


now if you have very little back pressure this might also be a cause

RallyAccord

i just noticed your from the bay area.. i used to live in fremont a while ago. too bad i still dont..could help out

KRIS05VVTi

my cb7 did that and it turned out to be the coil

ttcheung97

just wait and wait until all the info gets sent? well, i rather have smoetihng that's surefire.

it's been raining and cold outside, and the car started up, which leads me to really think it's something in the cabin. I think I'm going to look at the "soldering the relay" tutorial and take a stab at it, on my spare relay, that is.

redbull-1

Because of your CEL code 15, it may be your igniter.

ttcheung97

and that unit's sensitive to outside ambient heat?

redbull-1

Yes, heat can affect it. It was in the link I had posted for you before.

http://techauto.awardspace.com/ignition.html

cobyss

mine did that it was the distributer replaced it and now it runs perfect

ttcheung97

Redbull, I really appreciate your help; thing is, my car does NOT seem to have the symptoms posted in the techauto link. the car stays running once it's warmed up. i do not have Yesterday i stopped by In-N-Out to pick up some food; the car sat for about 20 minutes after having being driven about 25 miles. Came out of the restaurant and the car started right up.

perhaps I just need to stop whining so much here and start testing some parts by swapping them around...

ttcheung97

the more i read that website (thank goodness the workday's not as busy today, HA), it seems like the culprit is more towards the main fuel relay!

:: taken from website::

Main relay symptoms are:

* Car won't start when hot outside (fuel injected PGM-FI models only. For carb see [See My car is not fuel injected why won't my fuel pump work?] )
* Car won't start after parked for just a minute.
* Car starts but quickly dies as the rpm shoots to 1300 rpm. A second cranking attempt will crank but no signs of catching or any strong rpm movements.
* Once started the car won't stall. After the car runs for a couple minutes, the symptoms return after shutting off the engine.
* Windows have been rolled up on a hot day when problem occurred.
* The heater was on before turning the car off.
* Tapping your fingers or keys on the main relay will start the car.
* No (humming) sound from the fuel pump the moment the ignition switches ON.
* No click sound after the ignition key turns on or
* No click sound two seconds after the ignition turns on.
* Check engine light comes on (rare cases) or stays on longer than usual and no sparks (electronic timing only.)
* 10-15 of waiting and the car pushed to a shade, will usually start.

hmmmm...looks like some soldering will be in order this weekend...

ehudslefthand

i need to retract my previous statement about the ignition switch, my car did it again but it " died" but quickly started running again so i didnt have to pull over, so it was NOT the ignition switch, i would probably say either coil or igniter. i just replaced those so its running better than ever, but unless you start testing parts you are never find out whats wrong with it.

Main relay causes the same problem, but high milage honda its either a main relay, coil or igniter. i just bought the whole distro with all the guts new cause i did not feel like remaning mine cause the seal was leaking. and i changed the coil cause its old. but still until you start testing the car, like next time it dies, you take the fuel line off the injector rack and place solid plastic cup under it and turn the key and and see if you get fuel. thats costs $0.00 to do unless you have buy a plastic cup and take the bolt out of the banjo connector. you then turn the key on make sure the cup is not anywhere it fall over and is big enough to take in alot of gas. if its the main relay you wont get any fuel

if is something else you will get fuel, i also did some research on this since my car has this same problem. so i also started checking my ecu ground and made sure it was not corroded or loose.

i now replace the distributor and coil because thats all thats left and considering the car has over 209k its time to replace these parts with new parts anyway. to check for spark when it does this just take a spark plaug off and connect the wire and make sure you set it where you can see it from inside the car and crank it.

if not spark the main relay can cause this to since it has to relays inside it { i took one apart and resoldered it i ended up buying a new one anyway} but more than likely its the ignitor or the coil. this has been my bane with this car, it was a gift and the person they got it from didnt ever maintain the car, even the oil looked well over 6000 miles on it. but these simple tests you can do at hom, just make sure you have a good boxed wrench to put the banjo bolt back on the fuel line tight enough but not to tight, just make sure it leaks no fuel. once you figure out why you car dies. i know on mine if i waiting 1-4 hours it would fire back up like nothing happened. its something getting hot inside either the main relay or the ignitor or coil. i hope this helps.

ttcheung97

thank you very much for the elaborate explanation.

I had my friend take a look at the relay this weekend, and being the EE that he is, he told me the relay was fine. before I went to his house I spent about five minutes trying to get the car started. i SLOWLY released it from position III to see if the engine would stay running. The one time I actually did slowly release it was the time the car decided to stay running. Once running I thought, "well, doesn't hurt to try and start it again." so i turned off the engine, turned it back up and it started right up.

My friend actually looked at both of the main fuel relays I had (the second one was from a donor car), and he said both were fine. I believe him on this, and another reason I'd like to dismiss the relay as a suspect is that when i was cranking the engine at home, swapping relays did nothing to mitigate the problem.

Well now, it's either the ignition switch or the igniter. I've already checked the wiring between the ECU to the distributor.

ttcheung97

update:

a couple friends decided to help me troubleshoot by process of elimination. Why not just put a blowdryer to the relay, and use this heated one to compare with my other one? Doh!

before i heated up the relay I decided to start-up the car; it had been sitting in the cool garage for two days after washing it. the first attempt came with "immediately dies." I decided to start it again, this time by turning the key to position III slower and letting go of the key from position III slower. the car stayed running. hmmmm, ignition switch? in any case, let's proceed back to heating the relay.

So i propped the relay enclosure apart and heated the relay for about 5 minutes. the circuit board had become quite warm to the touch. I rushed back to the car and connected it; turned the key to position II (ON), and heard the fuel pump prime, damn, thought it wouldn't come on. I proceeded to start the engine, and it fired up, and DIED immediately afterwards. the CEL didn't turn on. i turned the key off, and then back to the position II, no whine NOR click from the relay, and the engine just cranked while i tried starting it. I tried it a few more times, no success. Ok, so I quickly switched relays (i have another one from an old donor car), and boom, it starts right up. I cycled the process a few more times (off, position II, listen for fuel pump, listen for click, start it up), and no problem.

Alright, maybe it was a fluke, let's go back to my old relay. disconnect the "cold" relay, connected the "warm" one back on, and once again the fuel pumped, and it started up with NO problem. I turned off the engine, turned the key back to position II, no hum, no click, just cranking.

So, after all this rambling, i'm thinking it IS the relay. But then why did the car decide to run when i slowly released the key from position III in the beginning of this post? More than one culprit?

Hopefully someone with the same problem as me will read through my long-winded posts and not have to go through my troubles down the line.

NashvegasCg

it's the main relay... no question asked

ttcheung97

drove it yesterday, parked it under the sun. started it up after work around 4pm. decided to turn the key sloooowly this time; the car started right up. I was expected the relay to fail on me, but no, it didn't. damn random problems.

ttcheung97

Update:

This past weekend I had a friend help me apply some more solder to the cracked contacts on the relay. Looking at it closely, i saw that a few of the solders had show heat-cycling cracks. Therefore my friend glopped a bit of solder onto those contacts. We didn't have time (yes, i know, if you don't have time to do it right the first time, how will you get time to" blah blah blah) to desolder and such, but scrubbed it down, used his NASA soldering skills, and afterwards we chucked the relay back into the car.

so far it's started up each time I've gotten into the car. It's sunny today and I parked the car under sun; went outside to start it up around 2pm and it started right up the three times i twisted the key. Fluke? I'm about to get off work around 4pm and we'll see again.

gsr96cx

Great thread!! I'm having the same problem with my civic. Same code 15, but I also have code 14 IAC. So since you fixed the main relay there had been no problem right?

ttcheung97

UNfortunately the car would not start this past Saturday. It's been fine this past week, but it was sunnier and warmer on Saturday, and the car had been parked under the sun until i tried to start it around 11am......it started and died immediately. I tried holding the ignition to the threshold of position III and it died. I tapped and smacked the relay and it died. All my dash lights were on, the fuel pump had primed and my CEL was off prior to each start.

I had haphazardly kept my spare relay in the car, so it had been baking a bit as well. I took it out of the car and let it sit in the garage to cool down; then i swapped relays. the car still died.

At this point I'm left with buying a distributor/igniter. Kragen wanted $200 for the igniter, and about $370 for the whole distributor which they didn't have in stock. The dealer was far worse (obviously) with the distributor at $770, and the junkyard was selling one with unknown mileage and a cracked cap. I searched around and found a cheap AND new distributor from this site called 1A Auto. Apparently they're filled with praise and quality and customer service, so I bought it and we'll see how it comes out.

I thought this was a Honda.

tag0617

Had a very similar problem with my Accord. Mine either fixed itself or I did it with a distributor cap and rotor change. I still have a stall problem but that's from a short in the fuel pump wiring harness/relay junction under the back seat. Just 2 cents worth.

wvcb7

ok so i recently replaced the ingition switch in my dads cb7, i was having similar problems i would have to hold the key in position III and bring it back just far enough for the brake light to go off meaning the starter was disengaged, and sometimes randomly it would stay running for a bit, the strike point get buildup on them cause them not to strike, so i would check the ignition switch its an easy process and if you need a new its about 60-65 bucks at an auto parts store and about 20 minutes to change, but id say its worth a try

ttcheung97

UPDATE: I have received and replaced the distributor. The unit obviously is NOT a Honda OEM unit, but one that is from "Taiwan." I was surprised to see the bolts for the cap were actually torque-marked. the castings were more-or-less identical as were the wire colors and keyed-insert.

I installed the distributor and the car started up (good Taiwan quality), but previous experience has told me that the car doesn't like to start after sitting for periods longer than the "work routine" driving hours. Time will tell, and I'll update.

ttcheung97

After driving through a pretty warm weekend, the car started up WITHOUT any hiccups. The car sat in the sun majority of the time and it performed fine.

Changing the distributor did the trick, and being more specific, it was the igniter that created the problems, unless it was an act of god.

Furthermore, the CEL15 pointed to the igniter as well, re-enforcing the claim.

ttcheung97

Thought I was going to end this thread, but today my car died on the freeway. it took a bit of cranking to get the car started but I managed to get home with the CEL on. at home I jumped the 2P connector and revealed a CEL8 and CEL15, tdc sensor and ignition output signal. I guess it's time to return this distributor and just spend a bit more and buy an igniter like I should've in the first place.

Would the TDC sensor's malfunction have an effect on CEL15? i was looking at the distributor architecture diagram and the TDC, Crank position sensor, as well as the cylinder sensor provide input to the igniter, but I was curious to know if THAT would spark the CEL15 as well.

So much for the confidence I was gaining back....

ttcheung97

reviving from the dead. since my last post, i had returned my then-new distributor and 1AAuto replaced it with a new, working unit. My car worked fine until last week, where the "STARTS AND IMMEDIATELY DIES" problem reared its ugly head again. I JUST received a new one and upon installing it, it STILL died immediately upon startup. I then twisted the key to off, then back to on, and just waited, and then it started right up. Again, no problems on the freeway, flooring it, with A/C on, etc. it's raining, so I don't think temps are the culprit.

This shotgun approach is killing me, and I really want to solve this problem. Seems like my next area of interest would be the ignition switch. How difficult is it to replace that?, and is there a link to a walk-through for that? thanks in advance.