A_Rotary_Guy

Well, I've decided after looking at the crappy fluid in my tranny that I should get around to flushing it out. I'm wondering what you guys are using for fluid. I know Honda ATF is recommended, but I heard that apparently Dexron III works better. I can't imagine how this is true, but it's just something I read. I know that the auto trannies have no serviceable filter, so that's the reason for flushing it. The only filter to speak of is the magnetic drain plug to pick up the metal shavings. So my questions -

What fluid are you guys using?

Are there any cleaners you use when changing the transmission fluid?

Are there any additives you use with the new fluid?

Would installing an aftermarket tranny cooler help to keep the fluid fresher?

The-Kid

Honda's ATF-Z1 is for all Honda cars. New or old. They work best. Other fluids are just bad. They do it's purpose, but not as good as Honda. You can do the drain and refill x2 method. Find out more by searching.

I am currently using ATF-Z1 in all cars.

I don't use any additives... ATF-Z1 is the best.

Aftermarket tranny cooler just prolongs the life of the tranny. If you don't do any towing or any stress on the tranny, you don't really need a cooler. The current cooler is adequete.

sony224422

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The-Kid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda's ATF-Z1 is for all Honda cars. New or old. They work best. Other fluids are just bad. They do it's purpose, but not as good as Honda. You can do the drain and refill x2 method. Find out more by searching.

I am currently using ATF-Z1 in all cars.

I don't use any additives... ATF-Z1 is the best.

True

Aftermarket tranny cooler just prolongs the life of the tranny. If you don't do any towing or any stress on the tranny, you don't really need a cooler. The current cooler is adequete.

Its not a bad idea, it will not hurt anything at all, and will keep the fluid cooler, which will keep it from "burning" up

</TD></TR></TABLE>

A_Rotary_Guy

Alright, I'll go with the Honda ATF then. I know transmission fluid is caustic as it does have many detergents in it. I know when you spill it on the floor it cleans the floor better than a lot of cleaning solvents do. I just know that when we do flushes at work we run a cleaner through with the flush and wasn't sure if you guys had anything specific you used. I know some people used Seafoam or Lucas in their tranny and said it made it shift better, but didn't know if this was a good idea or not. I might start looking around for a tranny cooler and see what I can find. I always thought it would be a fun mod to do and figured it could help out a lot.

A_Rotary_Guy

Another question here. I remember someone saying something about a TSB with the lock up solenoid. Are there any other problems with these trannies that I should know about? I plan on flushing out the tranny with Honda ATF and then cleaning out the screens on the solenoids and cleaning off the drain plug. Is there anything else I should do to get the tranny back into good shape? Is there any cleaners or additivies that you guys use? Any of you guys running a tranny cooler?

A_Rotary_Guy

Yea, I figured I shouldn't need any extra additives or cleaners. I just remember a few people saying they used them and apparently they helped. I plan flushing the system, cleaning the drain plug, removing and cleaning the sensors and magnets from the passenger side, and then cleaning the screens on the solenoids and seeing how well that works.

My only gripe about doing the tranny cooler is wondering if it would overcool the fluid. I know in the winter it averages 20 degrees around here. When I was working on my RX-7 and wanted add another oil cooler, guys were saying that it would overcool the oil in the winter and not allow it to reach it's correct operating temperature. If I do get a cooler, is there one you guys could recommend?

About the filters - yea, they're aren't "serviceable" filters like most trannies have. I don't know about the remote mount filter thing - adding all of these components in may drop the pressure down too far and not allow the tranny to shift correctly. I'm not sure how much a remote mount filter will help anyways. I'm pretty sure if I flush the tranny and clean out the other filters that will do everything I need them to.

Now, I know I'm not able to rule out the TCM or the solenoids yet, but is there any way to diagnose these things?

A_Rotary_Guy

I was lucky enough at work to get Mitchell On-demand today so I'm not able to diagnose all the components for the transmission.

I'm pretty sure I'm not going to do the remote mount filter thing. If I do, I have a feeling it would drop the pump pressure too far down and cause the tranny to shift incorrectly, especially if you're adding an extra 3 feet of line along with another filter. If the TCM sees incorrect line pressure it won't shift at the right times. Also, if you flush out the tranny it's going to clean out the filters that are inside of it already, so adding another filter would just be overkill then.

I'm not dead set yet on the tranny cooler idea, but I would still like to do it. I'm just not so sure how well it's going to do in the winter or where I can even get a cooler at or which one to use. I guess I'll just have to start looking around.

A_Rotary_Guy

The pressure should stay the same as long as you have the correct fluid level and aren't mounting the lines or anything completely different from the original configuration. I think I'll probably pass on the inline filter since my tranny already has a filter in it and I'll be flushing the tranmission out and cleaning it out. I'm pretty sure another filter will just be overkill, especially if I start changing out the fluid every 30k anyways. The only reason to add another filter would be to try and prolong the fluid life, but this is pointless if you actually change the fluid when it starts getting bad. I know that semi-truckers run oil filtration systems, but that's because they need to extend oil life much farther than conventional means and also engine oil gets fuel dilution - something a tranny doesn't have to worry about. At work we recommend tranny flushes every 30k, which is usually the point where the tranny fluid starts getting that burnt smell and starts getting darker and it needs changed.

hilltopgraphics

Just an FYI regarding ATF... Honda's ATF-Z1 is recommended for those who like smoother shifting, as it is a bit thinner and is designed to allow for some clutch slippage. However, if you like a sportier and firmer shift - go with the DexronIII. It's a bit thicker and doesn't allow the clutches to slip nearly as much.

The down side to not using ATF-Z1 is that the hydraulic circuitry, solenoids, shaft ports, clutches, internal strainer and so on were designed specifically for the viscosity rating of ATF-Z1. There is a slight chance that an alternate fluid will "gel" inside the strainer. This could undoubtedly reduce line pressure and lead to burnt clutches or torque converter.

A_Rotary_Guy

Thanks for info on the fluids. I would like a firmer shift, but I don't want to risk the transmission in the process. I'd imagine I could have some problems with using Dexron III also because I live in pretty cold weather, meaning it's going to get a lot thicker when it gets cold. Here's what I plan on doing:

Flush transmission and refill with Honda ATF
Remove and clean drain plug
Remove and clean sensors and magnets
Remove solenoids and clean screens
Install aftermarket transmission cooler
Install aftermarket thermostatic valve

Now all I'm wondering is what tranny cooler and thermostatic valve you guys could recommend. Here's what I'm looking at:

http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

sony224422

honda atf is all i'd ever run in my tranny.

why you ask?

Look for all the threads when people used other stuff, and there trannys shifted rough, slipped, and eventually went out.

You do know that the 5th gen autos are almost bullet proof, they are tanks, they run forever. I don't know what year car you have, but theres not much to worry about with this tranny. Besides, how many miles do you have on the car? its probably cheaper to just swap out a tranny for another auto than to do take it all apart and rebuild/clean it. I would however, recommend a tranny cooler.

A_Rotary_Guy

I don't think this one has any internal problems with the clutches, just that it needs a flush to clean out all the old ****. The tranny doesn't always slip, and lately it hasn't slipped at all since it warmed up a little more. I won't be taking the tranny apart, just taking off the external solenoids and such. The only bad thing about getting a used tranny is I don't know the condition of it whereas if I rebuild it, it's going to be completely fresh and ready to go.

A_Rotary_Guy

Alright, I had a discussion with my girlfriend's brother about this. He said it's run a few tranny coolers one a few different cars. He said that he never bypasses the stock cooler inside the radiator mostly for these reasons. During the summer time when the tranny fluid gets hot, the coolant running through the radiator will actually help cool down the tranny fluid. During the winter the coolant running through the radiator will help get the tranny fluid warmed up. This makes a lot of sense.

I asked him about the thermostatic valves and he said he would honestly not run one for the fact that if it ever got stuck shut you'd fry the tranny, especially if you aren't running a tranny temp gauge. Also, I don't know why I didn't think of this, but I always remote start my car in the winter and let it heat up for at least 5 minutes before I drive it, so the thermostatic valve wouldn't be needed anyways.

I also asked him about the remote mount filter idea and he said that if you ran a filter that wasn't the correct size for the pressure that it will throw the pressure off, and even just throwing it of a few PSI will mess with shift points. He also stated that as long as I flush out the system to clean the stock filter and just start changing the fluid every 40k or so that I shouldn't have any issues with the fluid being contaminated.

Now about the additives thing. I asked him about using any additives in the fluid and he said that he supports Lucas quite a bit. He had a friend with a 5.0 automatic Cougar XR-7 that was slipping some. He said they put on an aftermarket tranny cooler, put in fresh fluid, and tossed in a quart of Lucas tranny additive and it hasn't slipped since. I was thinking of trying out the Lucas stuff since it seems like it actually works.

diyer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by A_Rotary_Guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> ... Here's what I plan on doing:

...

Remove and clean sensors and magnets

... </TD></TR></TABLE>


Where are the sensors and magnets located? I would also like to clean mine for preventive maintenance purposes.

Btw, I have asked a local independent Honda repair tech, as well as, a Honda tech about removing the solenoids and cleaning out the screens and gunk out of the solenoids. Surprisingly, neither of them have ever done this unless the tranny had problems. Both kinda said I could ... open up a can of worms ... if it ain't broke don't fix it. I can relate to that because many times when all I wanted to do was the right thing, and out of nowhere comes Murphy's Law [always at my back] causing me to break something because of one little piece of missing information, that the HAYNES manual forgot to include, or the people on a BB just somehow forgot that one little thing. Dont take that personal but we all have that happen on the internet sooner or later, depsite good intentions ... I'm justs sayin I'm tryin to be very careful.

Having said that, is this solenoid-sensor-magnet-cleaning really all that cut and dried and straightforward, or is it a disaster waiting to happen? I'm thinking perhaps that the people that have done this are far more professional than I am. I just am worried about this primarily because of the answers of the those two local techs.


Modified by diyer at 3:51 PM 1/6/2008

m735is

The magnetic speed sensors are on the passenger end of the tranny. Just follow the wires to them. I removed mine to clean the magnets because of my tranny problem I already had. I had to carefully twist them out with some vise grips, I didn't want to crack the plastic. Even with tranny problems, my lockup solenoid screen was spotless. I don't have shifting problems, so I didn't mess with the shift solenoid.

My tranny wasn't slipping, but I added the Lucas because I had it and it was a last ditch effort to get the CEL to stay off long enough for my safety inspection. It worked, but I think I have to drain and refill with Honda ATF one more time, I feel the Lucas is just too thick for the Accord tranny in the really cold weather.

sony224422

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by A_Rotary_Guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alright, I had a discussion with my girlfriend's brother about this. He said it's run a few tranny coolers one a few different cars. He said that he never bypasses the stock cooler inside the radiator mostly for these reasons. During the summer time when the tranny fluid gets hot, the coolant running through the radiator will actually help cool down the tranny fluid. During the winter the coolant running through the radiator will help get the tranny fluid warmed up. This makes a lot of sense. If you decide not to, you could put your tranny cooler whereever you wanted, and not have to worry about the lines and stuff.

I asked him about the thermostatic valves and he said he would honestly not run one for the fact that if it ever got stuck shut you'd fry the tranny, especially if you aren't running a tranny temp gauge. Also, I don't know why I didn't think of this, but I always remote start my car in the winter and let it heat up for at least 5 minutes before I drive it, so the thermostatic valve wouldn't be needed anyways.

I also asked him about the remote mount filter idea and he said that if you ran a filter that wasn't the correct size for the pressure that it will throw the pressure off, and even just throwing it of a few PSI will mess with shift points. While that could be true, i don't think it is. I know alot of people that run them on trucks, and some on cars.He also stated that as long as I flush out the system to clean the stock filter and just start changing the fluid every 40k or so that I shouldn't have any issues with the fluid being contaminated.Most people change there fluid (3 qrts about) at a time every year or 15k. Also, a flush is NOT recommended.. honda won't do them. You can have it done, and it does spark a debate, but honda does not do them. The stock filter is an internal, non serviceable part, unless your rebuilding.

Now about the additives thing. I asked him about using any additives in the fluid and he said that he supports Lucas quite a bit. He had a friend with a 5.0 automatic Cougar XR-7 that was slipping some. He said they put on an aftermarket tranny cooler, put in fresh fluid, and tossed in a quart of Lucas tranny additive and it hasn't slipped since. I was thinking of trying out the Lucas stuff since it seems like it actually works.Again, i wouldn't put anything but honda ATF in it. Lucus is extremely thick, while honda atf isn't at all. Honda atf has everything your tranny will need. running too thick of fluid will cause damage, bad shifts, and slippage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ronin1

External transmission coolers can be tricky. Unless you have a specific need for one, such as a lot of towing, it may be unnecessary and could actually harm your transmission. The transmissions are designed to operate within a specific temperature range. Too hot or too cold can cause problems. External coolers can cause a tranny to run too cool and cause premature wear. Although you are looking at one with a thermostat it is not without potential problems as has been pointed out to you.

I would replace the fluid and then do it again sooner than the normal interval to be sure that anything in there gets cleaned out.

Mystral Hawk

Well the 6th gen av6 is notorious for having a bad tranny and in fact, Honda knows this...offering an extended warranty and goodwill service. The problem with the stock tranny cooler is that its just a simple copper tube that sits under the radiator. Its not even included! So honestly, it doesnt really do that much cooling.

I live in Maryland and we've been having 30s and 20 degree streaks around here and I havent had any trouble with my B&M Tranny cooler...just give it adequate time to warm up and dont push it and you'll be fine. Also our cars dont come with a tranny filter...just a magnetic bolt, so you can possibly get a remote tranny filter or an inline filter like a magnefine and its piece of mind for a shoddy tranny.

My B&M tranny filter cost about 60$ and the filter was 20. I dont regret paying it at all and ever since I installed it...the temperature is a little cooler and I dont have any wonky shifting or major slippage. I know many people who have the B&M remote filter and havent had any issues regarding pressure or overcooling. In my case, I have an inline filter that has a paper element and a magnetic ring that pulls particulates out of the fluid, but if it gets clogged it has a bypass. I havent heard/had any issues with messed up shift points with filters and I know plenty of people who havent had any issues. The benefit of the filter is that it will catch particulates in your fluid that come from your tranny from going back in. With the magnetic drain bolt, it will only catch metal pieces that makes contact with it or very close proximity. For example, the remote filter by B&M uses just a normal oil filter as its filter element. So you can assume that it'll do the same filtering effect as normal engine oil. In fact I know a couple Honda techs that have added coolers and filters for their Accords and recommend them.

In terms of coolers, the stacked plate design is the best in terms of design and cooling. The problem with haydens and stuff like that is that its an sbend tube thats just surrounded by radiator fins. This tube is easily clogged or potentially bent causing all sorts of issues. The stacked plate design offers durability and the most efficient cooling system. The best way to run your cooler is to have it after the stock cooler. You have tranny to stock cooler to additional cooler to filter to tranny. You dont/shouldnt bypass the stock cooler as it provides additional cooling.

Also, from what I hear, drain and fills are the best things for our car...I have heard many stories about people getting flushes and then having their tranny take a dump on them.

Like I said...I have a B&M tranny cooler and a Magnefine filter. Been running it for a year and havent had any issues. It firmed up shifting and is added piece of mind. I havent had any issues and like I said, small price to pay for added insurance for a shoddy tranny.

As for additives...Lucas may seemingly firm up shifting, but there is an article on Bob the Oil Guy where he tested additives. The Lucas tranny stuff caused the tranny fluid to foam up and create a lot of air bubbles which reduces the efficiency of the fluid.

Here is the link to the article. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...s.htm.

Only concern I have with the tranny cooler is that because you're adding more line and a mini reservoir, you'll have to compensate for the added space by adding more fluid. For my car, I think I added maybe half a quart or 3/4 quart. I would assume that because theres till a "regular" amount of fluid in there, the pump will continue to pump the fluid at the same psi and etc. Its not like theres less fluid and therefore less pressure.


Modified by Mystral Hawk at 8:47 PM 12/20/2007

A_Rotary_Guy

That all makes sense too. I can't imagine a cooler will cause the tranny to run too cool. I've seen lots of people that ran them and loved them. I knew a guy that had one on his Civic and he said it helped keep the fluid cooler and firmed up the shifting. He didn't have any problems with it in the winter. Also, I'd imagine that if I let the car warm up for a few minutes before driving it (like I already do) that the tranny fluid will be plenty warm before I start moving the car.

The remote filter thing is sounding like a good idea and I wouldn't mind trying it and seeing how well it works. As long as it uses a normal oil filter then I'd gladly use one since those are easy to find and cheap to acquire, unlike oil filtration filters. If the stock filtering setup sucks that badly, then I'm sure one couldn't hurt.

I still don't understand how a tranny flush can hurt a car. I've done tons of them at work and haven't seen it damage one single tranny. Every tranny I've flushed worked much better afterwards and didn't have any issues. The thing that blows about draining and filing is that you never get all of the old fluid out.

I guess I'll just pass on the Lucas then if you guys think it'd cause that much of a problem. It makes sense that it could if the Honda ATF is that thin. Most vehicles use thicker ****, like Mercon or Dexron. I know for sure the manual trannies use 5W30, which is obviously pretty thin for a gear oil.

sony224422

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by A_Rotary_Guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That all makes sense too. I can't imagine a cooler will cause the tranny to run too cool. I've seen lots of people that ran them and loved them. I knew a guy that had one on his Civic and he said it helped keep the fluid cooler and firmed up the shifting. He didn't have any problems with it in the winter. Also, I'd imagine that if I let the car warm up for a few minutes before driving it (like I already do) that the tranny fluid will be plenty warm before I start moving the car.

The remote filter thing is sounding like a good idea and I wouldn't mind trying it and seeing how well it works. As long as it uses a normal oil filter then I'd gladly use one since those are easy to find and cheap to acquire, unlike oil filtration filters. If the stock filtering setup sucks that badly, then I'm sure one couldn't hurt.

I still don't understand how a tranny flush can hurt a car. I've done tons of them at work and haven't seen it damage one single tranny. Every tranny I've flushed worked much better afterwards and didn't have any issues. The thing that blows about draining and filing is that you never get all of the old fluid out.

This sparks debate here.. its kinda like if it never had one done before, you could loosen up crude thats helping it if you will, and the have problems. Also, you can have more problems after with leaks and crap. If your really worried about it you could just do what i did (by accident, tranny hose blew while i was driving) and just take off the tranny hose to the radiator and let it all drain out lol. IDK how good that can be for the tranny.. but mine was fine after ha.

I guess I'll just pass on the Lucas then if you guys think it'd cause that much of a problem. It makes sense that it could if the Honda ATF is that thin. Most vehicles use thicker ****, like Mercon or Dexron. I know for sure the manual trannies use 5W30, which is obviously pretty thin for a gear oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mystral Hawk

The good thing about a drain and fill is that it doesnt put any additional pressure on the transmission and theres a procedure somewhere on how to do it to get all the fluid out. I dont remember it off hand but I do know that it exists.

Like most cars, dont run it super hard and give it adequate time for the engine to warm up.

This is the filter/cooler setup that is the most popular with people who own our cars...

http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

Hope I helped a bit and good luck on whatever choice you go for. If you need any additional information just give me a holler and I'll try to help you out or put you in the right direction.

Here is the thread I used regarding the whole debate of tranny coolers and filters. http://www.v6performance.net/f...=1248. V6p is a really good resource for information regarding the 6th gen Accord. Probably every question youve ever had about our car has been answered there... They may be able to provide more input regarding drain and fills and flushing the tranny. I know there are plenty of detailed threads regarding it. But because I frequent v6p more than hondatech doesnt mean I dont like Honda Tech though.




Modified by Mystral Hawk at 9:15 AM 12/22/2007

A_Rotary_Guy

I'll probably just run that same cooler and filter setup then. It looks like it is the popular choice for our cars as you said. I'm going to run just the Honda ATF too without any additivies. Should work out good.

I know for sure that I will be removing the drain plug and cleaning it off. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to remove the sensors and magnets and the solenoids to clean them all up. I'm also not sure about doing the flush yet either or if I'm just going to do a drain and fill. I'll probably call down to the Honda dealership and talk to the service department about what they recommenend.

A_Rotary_Guy

I called the Honda dealership today that's in my area and talked to the service manager. He said that they do transmission flushes on Honda auto trannies there. He also said that they do not put in any additives into the fluid and just use Honda ATF by itself. I guess it depends on which person you talk to about the flushes. Some believe it's bad, some think it's good. I think I'm going to try it and see how it works. I think I may call them again tomorrow or stop in and get a better explanation from them.

Mystral Hawk

Hey man, sounds good. Glad I could help you out a little without confusing you too much.

Chrisfball12

I just use valvoline synthetic dex3 oil in the tranny and it works fine

As for the question of the aftermarket tranny cooler most people mount their trany and oil coolors in the corner in front of the radiator so that it can stay warm yet cool