michaelrush01

I'm a newb to this forum but I have been working on Honda motorcycles and cars for 40+ years. This one has me stumped but I'm getting old and I'm more easily stumped than I use to be...

1997 Accord LX 4DR F22B2 263k Bone Stock

Bought this car for my 17 year-old. It's been a father/son project that we've been restoring for about 4 months now.

It has had an intermittent cold 'no start' since the day we bought it and sometimes it would act like it's flooded, blowing clouds of black smoke from the exhaust. First thing we checked were the plugs. Found the center electrodes completely gone and the spark plug tubes filled with oil. Replaced the plugs (NGK Iridium) and spark plug tube o-rings, (the plug wires were brand new). It ran great for maybe a month.

Then it happened again. I replaced the ignition switch (Honda OEM) because upon examination, I found the contacts were burnt to a crisp. Again, it ran great for a couple of weeks.

Three weeks ago it popped a P0171 code so I:
Replaced a crumbling o-ring under the MAP sensor, cleaned every connector and ground under the hood and eventually replaced the O2 sensor (Denso) in the ex. manifold. That cleared the code and it ran great for a couple of weeks.

A week ago, it did it again. No Spark.

Checked the aftermarket cap on the aftermarket distributor and found the carbon button stuck so I replaced the cap & rotor (Honda OEM) and it ran great for a couple of days.

Again, No Spark. I found .7 ohms at the coil primary side, 19k on the secondary side and 7k on the wire from the coil to the distributor cap. I had 12v at the coil yellow wire, a pulsing ground at the coil yellow/green using my home made LED test light (indicating I was getting a signal from the ECM), but I had no pulsing ground at the coil green wire.
AHA - finally, bad ICM! I am GENIUS!

Repaced ICM last Tuesday, (Autozone, couldn't afford OEM) ran great for 6 days, cold starts and everything, patted myself on the back, my son's faith has been restored.

Until it failed to start again this morning. It was colder this morning than any day since we bought the car, about 47 degrees.

So at 7am this morning, I'm in my pajamas, testing my sons car once again. He's late to work and apparently I don't know what I'm doing...

I got one spark only, every time I tried to start it. Stupid Autozone ICM I'm thinking...

I have 12v at the coil yellow wire and while testing for a negative pulse at the coil green, it tried to start.

So I disconnect the test light and kept trying. Eventually, it started and ran great as long as I held the key in the 'start' position. When I moved the key to the 'Run' position, the tach needle dropped down to 250 rpm and clouds of black smoke billowed out the exhaust. While its doing that, if I move the key back to the 'Start' position (sorry starter motor), it ran and revved up just fine. After a few minutes of this behavior, it starts and runs just fine. No check engine light, no stored codes, starts every time and runs like a beast once it gets hot!

I don't understand the connection between no spark (or one spark) and then running like its flooded unless you hold the key in the 'Start' position.

I understand that the ECM uses preset parameters when the key is in the 'Start' position that changes when the key is moved to the 'Run' position.

If it was a '74 Civic 1200 I could fix it no problem. I don't have the tools to diagnose this new fangled machine, I don't want to throw any more parts at this nor can I afford to let my neighborhood Honda dealer diag it for $100/hr.

My forehead is bleeding from beating it against the brick wall I've hit.
My son is losing faith in me...Thanks in advance for all your help.

Best Regards,
Michael Rush

95accordCE6

Have you noticed anything odd with the check engine light when trying to start the car? In some cases you'll notice when the car won't start the check engine light stays on even after the initial light check when the key is first turned on, and the times it starts the light has gone out after the light check. That is typically a symptom of a bad main relay, loose ecu pin, or faulty ecu. Not saying that's you're problem but it would be good to know if you have that symptom

michaelrush01

Thanks for the response. That has not been a symptom, in fact, we are very aware of waiting for the check engine light to go out before starting each and every time, as well as listening for the fuel pump while it's initially illuminated. We have seen no idiosyncrasies since replacing the O2 sensor....

Mike

bsdubois

Have you checked the main relay? ScannerDanner has a great Youtube Video explaining how to remove, examine and re-solder the main relay. I removed mine and could not see any cold solder joints. I replaced mine with one from NAPA. It was a bit cheaper than the HONDA part, however, it was made in China and I really despise anything made in China.

Did you check the distributor for oil leaking at the internal seal? Honda uses two different distro in the 97 Accord. TEC for most and Hitachi for the VTEC engine in the EX model. Red's Auto Rehab @ redsautorehab.com has both seals available. There are several good YouTube videos available describing how to replace the inner seal and the outer "O" ring seal.

Have you cleaned the exhaust gas recycling ports on the intake manifold? Eric the car guy has a great youtube video showing how to clean the ports. You first remove one vacuum line on the right side of the engine. You carefully pry out the four injectors while leaving them attached to the fuel rail. Remove the EGR valve and the four or five bolts holding the cover on the intake manifold. The cover will be full of carbon. A wood dowel or cuticle stick work well to help remove the carbon. Throttle body cleaner is also a big help. The gasket has one large hole on the right side from the EGR valve. There are four 10 mm holes in the gasket that line up with the ports on the intake manifold. The port has a 10 mm (approx) opening on the top that is 4 to 6 mm deep. There is a smaller hole below the 10 mm that is about 4 to 5 mm and it goes all the way through the remainder of the thickness of the intake manifold pipe. The EGR valve has two ports, one rectangular and one round. The round port has a needle valve in the center. The needle valve is actuated by a vacuum chamber and bellows near the top of the valve. A hand operated vacuum pump can be used to apply a small vacuum to unseat the needle valve and allow you to spray throttle body cleaner in the opening. There is another good youtube video on cleaning EGR valves on Honda Accords.

I hope this helps and I did not intend to insult your intelligence. You may have tried these already. I am fighting a 1997 Accord EX with a random shut down. It is driving me nuts!

Best of luck. Please let me know if any of this helps or if you might have any question that I might be able to answer. We have owned the 97 EX since it was new. I have a decent overview of how the EX works.... just enough to make me dangerous. I will be happy to share what little I know.

Take care.

michaelrush01

Thanks for the response and no way could you insult my intelligence because that alone implies that have some....

I have not tested the main relay because we can hear the fuel pump cycle correctly everytime we turn the key on and we also wait for the check engine light to go out each time before starting the car. My understanding is that if the main relay does not function properly, two symptoms can occur, one - the fuel pump will not cycle and two - the check engine light will not turn off. If it doesn't turn off, the car will not start. I will check out ScannerDanner's YouTube video however because at this point, there is no such thing as too much information....

The distributor had just been replaced before we bought the car and it is dry as a bone inside and out....

I have not cleaned the EGR ports, you are the first to suggest this and I will consider it.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I will let you know how things progress! This morning it started without any drama....

michaelrush01

Quick Update - Last night I pulled the IAT and ECT sensors and submerged them in ice water. IAT measured fine, the ECT measured 10k resistance when it should read 5K. The graph in the OEM shop manual says 10k resistance = approximately 10 - 15 degrees coolant temperature. That'll richen the mixture a tad...

I replaced the ECT but it was 65 here this morning and it started just fine. We'll see what happens tomorrow morning when the temp is supposed to be 45 degrees.

Stay Tuned

michaelrush01

10 days later, still no progress. Engine is exceptionally difficult to start below 45 degrees and has no problems whatsoever above 45 degrees. Last Sunday (Nov. 2nd) it was 38 degrees and it would not start so I spent 5 hours under the hood re-testing eveything and found nothing out of spec. Pulled the main relay and inspected since it appears to be original. Threw it in the freezer, then tested every circuit path using a 12v battery and a digital multi-meter. It passed with flying colors. Borrowed a 'known good' main relay just for haha's. No Joy.

Guess I'll be moving to a warmer climate....

Michael

Lost Again

I hate things that only "act up" when cold outside - heck I act up when it is cold outside and don't feel like messing with anything.

For giggles, I'm way out there on this, next time you know it is going to be cold in the am (below 45 or so based upon what you have stated). Start the car for a bit in the late PM, just for a few minutes. Use an old towel(s) and wrap the dist and coil with it. Close the hood and say a prayer.

In the am when the temps are still low, open the hood and remove the towel(s) and try to start the car? A member on one of the forums I'm on did this and found the car would start...meaning something in the dist/coil was failing when the temps were below X. Hope it is just that.

Next, would be something with the ECU. The ECU's on these older ones seem to be failing more often these days. So what if you place a small space heater - warning, we do not want to catch the car on fire - inside the car when it gets cold.....again, what happens in the am when you try to start the car?

I already said I was out on a limb with this........so to all of the "haters", I don't even want to hear it and will not even reply to "your comments" on these suggestions.

michaelrush01

Funny you should suggest that....
In my minds eye, I have pictured wedging a foam rubber dam around the perimeter between the engine bay and the ground, then an engine 'blanket' on top of the engine, under the hood. Then placing a 150W work light strategically inside the engine compartment, thus keeping everything 'toasty'.

Then again I'd rather just fix the dang thing....

To that end, I replaced the ECM this morning and in doing so, found the old one has yellow junkyard #'s and writing on it, AND it's the wrong part#.
Correct part# is 37820-P0J-L63, which is what I put in it, the old one was a L60, which fits a 96 2 door. Probably doesn't make any difference but we'll find out Thursday morning when it's gonna dip down to 38F in my neighborhood.

Got my fingers crossed.....
If it doesn't work, you better believe I'll be wrapping the distributor and coil with a towel ASAP!

Thanks for your time,
Michael

Lost Again

Again, where I was going - there are things inside the dist that can act up when cold......so the "towel" around it would narrow one piece down.

Next, the ECU can act up with temps...part two of narrowing things down

tim73

I have a 18 yr old son, and I can tell you what i tell him. I will help you the best I can. However, he is always welcome to take the car somewhere else, and let them pay for it.

michaelrush01

I think you're missing the point. This is a father/son project. I demonstrate valve adjustment on cylinder #1, then watch him adjust 2 - 4, verifying each step along the way. Now he knows how to adjust valves, replace a timing belt, flush all his fluids, etc., etc.

The same fundamental skills my dad handed down to me.

Now my 17 year-old son knows how to test for a negative pulse from the ECM to the ICM, how to test the ECT, IAT, MAP & TPS. How many 17 year-olds do you know that can do that?

My son is in college full time, studying computer engineering and graduated high school with a 2060 SAT score. He also works at Geek Squad rebuilding computers and will never be a car mechanic. The process of diagnosing this transitory anomaly has been at times frustrating for us both, but it brings us together and certainly builds character. He is learning not to give up.....

My dad was a jet engine engineer who worked for GE but he was also a tinkerer and could fix damn near anything. He could have easily paid someone to fix our Valiant station wagon but instead he chose to do it himself and took great pride in being able to do so. I grew up in the garage with my dad and I hope to instill the same values in my son.

Or I could just send him to Pep Boys and let Manny, Moe and Jack have at it....

michaelrush01

Glad I got that off my chest...

Just in case somebody is actually following this thread, Good News!

It has been mid 30's here for the last two days yet the beast is starting w/o issue since replacing the ECM last weekend. Fantastic!

So, in review, here's what we found wrong since purchasing this car:
1 - Spark plugs were submerged in oil and the center electrodes were GONE
2 - Ignition switch contacts were burnt to a crisp
3 - MAP sensor o-ring crumbling
4- P0171 cured by replacing the upstream O2 sensor
5 - Carbon rotor button in aftermarket dist cap was stuck up inside the cap and arcing
6 - No negative pulse from ICM to the coil
7 - ECT reading 5k too high @ 32 degrees
8 - Bad ECM

The amazing thing is - despite having all those issues, when hot, this 17 year-old car with 267K on the odometer ran pretty darn good. I think Honda makes some awesome machines....

Thanks to those of you who responded!
Best Regards,
Michael Rush

accordturb96

Glad to hear you got it working. I was thinking if you're dumping fuel like that it sure sounds like the startup fuel trim is way too rich. It almost reminded me of an untuned basemap for a turbo conversion.

tim73

Chill out, mr "my son is better than your son". I think YOU missed my point. I was only referring to you saying him loosing faith in you. By that, I meant if he were to take it somewhere else...and see the "professional" approach to car repair...especially a complicated electrical issue. He would quickly figure out, how expensive their way is...because they dont troubleshoot 1/4 of what you have done. Just throw new parts at it.

Additioanlly, I was going to come back this evening and recommend a few things, assuming you hadnt figured it out. First, check the wiring between the ECT and the ECM. Then the wiring from the ICM to the ECM. Checking for continuity, to ensure all wires were in good condition. Then I was going to recommend checking all grounds to the ECM. Ensure all grounds are <5ohms to teh negative battery terminal. I have personally had two ECM's eat themselves due to poor grounds. Glad to see you got the problem resolved...but I would still check those grounds. Because thats probably what killed your ECM in the first place.

michaelrush01

I think checking the ecm grounds is a good idea. Are you referring to this or are there more???

Lost Again

Glad ya'll were able to get it going.

Seems like more and more of the 4th and 5th gen ECU's are failing these days, I guess 16+ years are doing them in.

Lost Again

And then, sorry I usually try to stay out of the BS, for the haters and that.....time you can spend with a child is a thing you should never forget.

I'll give you a "teaser"....figure out the top line in my signature.

michaelrush01

I just removed G101 from the intake manifold and found 1.5 ohms to battery negative, where else to check?

bsdubois

I apologize I have not checked this thread for a few weeks. It is outstanding you and your Son are working together on the vehicle and you are teaching him how to troubleshoot and make his own repairs. Too many adults rely on a dealership to handle all their repairs. No one will take the same amount of time and care with your car than you will.

I am glad you were able to get your Accord up and running! Intermittent starting issues are the hardest to locate and repair. I have been trying to run my problems down for over 14 months.

Take care and thank you for the update!

Sincerely,

Brķan S. Du Bois
Evansville, IN

tim73

Get a ECU pinout for the 97 accord. Theyre all over the internet. Theres normally 2-4 grounds. Remove the harness from the ECU, and go from each ground, directly to the negative battery terminal. The pinout will tell you exactly which pins are grounds.

michaelrush01

Harry Chapin's most famous song should be a primer for fatherhood...

michaelrush01

No need to apologize Mr. Du Bois and thanks so much for your encouragement. I'm glad that you 'get it'.....

Michael Rush
Dover, DE

Lost Again

Not many know that or understand it, my hat is off to you . There are a few other by him that are in my playlist...due to what life handed me, well I still think it is a great song/story but it is hard to listen to.

Now back to the question. I think there is an a mistake in a post (< vs. >), you would want the least resistance to ground.

michaelrush01

Happy New Year Everyone!

Thought I'd post a quick update and give a huge thanks to all of you who helped me figure this thing out. Although my son's car starts reliably since replacing the ECM, it started throwing a code P0171 again and gas mileage went down the toilet. One day, while working on the car, my son noticed a hissing noise coming from the brake booster that lasted for 15 - 20 seconds after turning the engine off.

Since it had a new master cylinder on it when we purchased the car I figured "Oh great, the brake booster is rusting thru" and quite frankly, I've been putting off replacing it because I've done them before and it's a pain in the ****. Well, the 'new' master cylinder failed last weekend and when we replaced it we found the seal between the m/c and booster was mangled beyond recognition and was the source of the vacuum leak. New m/c, new seal and voila', no hissing, no MIL and she's back to 28 mpg highway again!

It's been quite the brain teaser figuring out this old beast but in my opinion, well worth the effort! 270,000 miles, it runs great and gets 28 mpg. Excellent first car for any teenager!!!

Best Regards,
Michael Rush