scubacamper

-previous comment deleted by scubacamper - did not add any value to thread.

holmesnmanny

The only thing I assumed was that what you posted was correct.

This is what YOU posted. I didn't post this. If this is true and your crank is at tdc, then there can only be two possibilities....either your firing order is wrong or your mechanical timing is off.

I told you to check both. One of them is wrong. You confirmed that both is right, however in order for what you posted above to be occurring, one of them is wrong.

I'm done with this thread.

scubacamper

I didn't say both were right - obviously the mechanical timing was off - the sprockets were not aligned.
You quoted what I said: the crank was at TDC, as indicated by the peep hole next to the exhaust manifold, but the cam was not. At that point, I was asking if there was anything wrong with simply rotating the cam sprocket in order to get everything in line.

I ended up doing that and made doubly sure every sprocket was aligned with its respective alignment mark. Then, I put everything back together.

I'm confused where you think I "didn't listen to you" -

Regardless - it's neither here nor there and no point in continuing this public pissing contest.

What is the appropriate procedure to make sure each component is both at its appropriate alignment mark, and in-time?

Holmesmanny - If you've got something else to say, please PM me - this is not the appropriate place to carry on the banter.

jollyhonda

I think you may just be pissing on a forest fire. 80lbs is not much. I guess I haven't checked compression on many Honda's so maybe I am wrong, but in the Chevy V8 world I am accustomed to anything under 100 is considered low compression. That would explain the trying to start, occasionally starting.
So let me offer some clarification for you. And I am not insulting your intelligence so dont take it that way. The crank makes 2 revolutions for every single revolution of the cam. In the combustion cycle the crank will hit tdc twice. You have tdc compression and tdc exhaust. If the crank is on tdc your cam mark will either be straight up or straight down. If it was straight down you should have rotated the crank another revolution and checked the marks then.
I hope you get your car back together and everything works for you. Another thing...does your car have a balance shaft? If so it has to be phased correctly or you can end up with problems. And if you have the crank on tdc, be very careful about turning the camshaft very much either direction. This is an interference motor, and even just turning the cam manually you can bump a piston with a valve hard enough to do damage. The sure fire way to prevent that is bring the crank to tdc and then back it off 1/4 turn (this is for a 4 cyl, 1/6 for 6 cyl, etc). This will insure that all the p istons are far enough down the hole not to be hit. On a 4 cyl 2 p istons are hitting tdc every 180° of crank rotation, so all 4 should be in the middle of the bore at 90°.
Good luck and hopefully you get her breathing fire!

Rob

scubacamper

Excellent and useful information - thank you Rob.
Now I know WHY I might be off - and more importantly, what I can do to keep myself from tearing up the valves.

I guess I have my work cut out for me...again. :/

jollyhonda

Just re read your thread. I think you had the plug wires 180° off. You stated the cam pulley was pointing down and the rotor pointed at 1. Should have been pointing at 4. Sorry to see you have been through all this mess and I am almost positive, if I read it correctly, you just needed to move your plug wires 2 slots. Your cam sprocket and distributor should ALWAYS line up. If they dont you either have a rotor that spun on the shaft (had that happen on a civic causing 2 weeks of angry thoughts and words I can't get back) or a catastrophic mechanical failure between the cam and dizzy. An easy check, look at the cam (valve cover off). Find the cylinder that is in compression...which means that all valves are closed...in other words you should have be able to wiggle all the rockers for that cylinder by hand. Then check distributor. The rotor should be pointing to the cylinder in compression. Each cylinder has a "mate. 1&4 and 2&3 are paired. So 1&4 are tdc at the same time. One is in compression and the other is in exhaust. So in your situation, with crank at tdc, cam mark straight down, rotor should have been pointing at 4.
Once again, I know this may seem basic to some, and you may have already known this, but that is my fresh eyes take on your sich.

ROb

scubacamper

Ohhhh say it ain't so!!! Say it ain't so!!!
I sure hope it's not something that simple - I mean, that'd be nice but ugh!!
I'll double check that sometime soon I hope :/

Also, I'll take all the elementary explanation I can get - nothing personal here.

scubacamper

So I took the cover off again and took another look at the timing marks on all the sprockets.
I rotated the crank until the arrow was pointing up and took a look at the cam. It was pointing down. I rotated the crank again and when it returned to 'up' I looked at the cam and it was then pointing up.
I'm guessing since last time I rotated the cam without rotating the crank, I should reverse that step to make sure it's all where it needs to be.

My questions is: Let's say the timing belts actually broke (it didn't in this case, but let's pretend) - is there a way to make sure each sprocket is right where it needs to be?

scubacamper

I put the distributor onto the end of the cam and set the cam at TDC. Looking at the distributor, it was exactly 180 degrees off.
After thinking about it a while, I remembered disassembling the distributor a while back and determined I put the key on backwards.
so I took the key off, flipped it around and put the car back together.

Still no start. :/

Oh well

scubacamper

Ok so I can't seem to find any concrete information on the web, even after thumbing through the 1,200-page service manual for about an hour...

I decided to see if the car was giving any codes (i know, I should have done this from the start!! )
Anyway, i shorted the connector, turned the key, and the CEL did not flash - just stayed illuminated. However, the D4 light after coming on for a few moments then turning off, began to flash. I counted the flashes to see if I could ascertain a code and stopped counting after I reached 100 flashes - the light just keeps rhythmically flashing with no pauses or breaks.
I can't find any information to translate this - does anyone know what this means? Could it be related to my issue?

On a separate note, I was checking to see if the fuel pump primed when I turned the key to 'on' - yes it did. So I tried it again, over and over again and when I got to about the 3rd or 4th time, the pump did NOT prime. Could this be because the pressure was already where it needed to be, or do I have a faulty main relay?

holmesnmanny

Now that you got the distributor shaft correct and the mechanical timing is correct(im assuming it's correct but you haven't posted any vids/pics showing that it's correct so we can verify) you need to redo your compression test. This will tell you if the engine is still in good shape enough to even start.

If that comes back good then you need to check for spark and fuel.

If you're not sure if the mechanical timing is correct, make a detailed vid of the crank at tdc so we can see it and show the cam arrow pointing up and the notches on the sides of the cam liking up flush with the timing cover/head so we can see it.

scubacamper

well, I had my cam pointing up and the distributor rotor pointing to 1. Took some pictures of it, and proceeded with the job.

I've got all timing belts off now, I aligned the rear balance shaft to where it needs to be, replaced the front balance shaft seal (didn't do that last time), and am looking to line everything back up and proceed with putting the belts back on.

Only now, the cam says up but my dizzy is pointing to 4. I must have turned something somewhere in the process without realizing it.

I think y'all just MIGHT be more frustrated than me at this point!

I'm going to wait for a response - what do I do at this point? Should I flip the distributor key again so the rotor is pointing to 1?

scubacamper

jollyhonda

Here is the beauty of the distributor. .. you can just move the wires to where they need to be. Line everything up with no plug wires installed. Wherever the rotor is pointing, that is number 1.

scubacamper

Funny you say that - the thought actually crossed my mind to just move the wires.

However, when I went to double check the distributor, I removed it and found both teeth on the key had snapped clean off.
Guess I'll be springing for a new distributor...

richkuan

Looks like you are back to square 1. I feel bad that although someone already pointed out long time ago that your distributor may be 180 degree off but you failed to correct that. From my observation, you always thought you are correct and you put everything back correctly, which proved wrong eventually. That's the origin of all your troubles. People are giving you solid trouble shooting information here. The problem is that you seem don't know what you are doing but keep claiming you did everything right.

As far as I know, the distributor shaft can only be assembled correctly in one orientation. The key is non-symmetric, you can't just rotate it arbitrarily and hope it's correct. It's NOT a hit or miss thing. Take a closer look at the key and the camshaft and hopefully you are able to figure out how to insert the distributor correctly. If not, you will never get the engine to start no matter how many parts you replace or how many times you realign the timing belt/camshaft, etc. It's actually not difficult at all to get the timing correct, but you really need to know what you are doing.

I really feel sorry you have so many trouble trying to get the engine to started. I believe in the beginning it might be caused by just something minor, like the distributor is 180 degree off. Now you got your timing totally messed up and damaged the distributor. Things may get worse if you don't know what you are doing but you think you know, despite all the professional opinions provided by people here trying to help you..... Good luck.

scubacamper

Thanks for the well-wishes.

scubacamper

update:
I ran a compression test again and came up with the following figures;
1. 200
2. 200
3. 195
4. 180

I think the numbers may be a little elevated due to residual oil left in the cylinder from the last compression test I did. For this reason, I didn't perform a wet test.

scubacamper

Update:

Thanks to "AndyD" here on HondaTech, I put a used OEM distributor, followed by my original coil, which as it turned out, was not bad.

Cranked the car

it turned over several times and then started up!!!

At long last, the Accord has FINALLY come back to life!

Thank you all so much for your input & help, especially your patience when I didn't listen. You guys are great and have saved me thousands of dollars!

Now, it won't shift out of 2nd gear and the D4 light keeps flashing with the pigtail shorted, but that'll be for another thread.

This site is awesome.

jollyhonda

Good to hear!