pungent

Hi

After driving my 91 Accord for a half mile, I have a problem when I try to accelerate from a full stop. This started happening about two weeks ago. The car hesitates/trembles at around 1500 RPMs. My car has 181800 miles. For the last 100 miles, I've run on a full tank of 89 Octane gas with a bottle of Chevron Techron (last fillup was 12 gallons).

Here are other minor issues that I am having with the car. I mention these in case there is a relationship with these minor issues and my hesitation problem:

- When I start my car in the morning, I turn the key and let the car "crank" three times. If the car does not start (most of the time), I shut it down, wait two seconds and turn the key again. In 99% of the cases, it fires right up the next time.

- When I make a turn, I hear a "click-click-click" sound from under the front drivers side wheel. I've had this for years. I've had this looked at numerous times and each time I'm told that the "rod" is fine. I've chalked this up to a bad ball bearing in the wheel mechanism(?). Having a full power steering resouvoir helps. This probably has nothing to do with my hesitation problem, but I'm trying to be thorough.

Other than that, no other major complaints for a 15 year old car.

Here is a recent history of what I've had done on the car and the mileage during that service. Note that I have NEVER had anything done with the EGR valve (clean the ports) or the O2 sensor. Also notice how I skipped putting in new wires at the last tuneup (169,900). Wires last changed at 150460. If the wires are the problem, then why is my problem only occurring as I accelerate from a dead stop thru the 1500 RPM range?

My Check Engine light has NOT kicked on...

Stuff Done Milage When Done
Oil Chng 179050
AC recharge/refill w/StopLeak 179050
Tighten Wiper Arms 179050
Top off Antifreeze 179050
Repair frozen lock on inside driver door 176969
Fix rattle (loose "hood stand" hook) 176600
Oil Chng 176095
Antifreeze Chng 176095
Replace Alternator 174824
Oil Chng 172780
Replace Vac Line 170940
Fix Lite cover 170512
Clean Throttle Body 170512
Repair two leaking coolant leaks (hoses) 170512
4 new tires 170000
Oil Chng 169900
Air Filter 169900
Fuel Filter 169900
PCV Valve 169900
Tuneup - Spark plugs/Cap/Rotor/(NO WIRE!!) 169900
Rear Brake Shoes 169900
Exhaust System (From back of cat to tail) 169900
Car Door Handle (Pas side) 169900
Oil Chng 167353
Cln Brakes 166855
Oil Chng 164222
Tire Rotat 164222
Ch Directional switch 161500
Oil Chng 160963
Tire Rotat 158590
Oil Chng 158082
Oil Chng 155134
Add 16 Oz of Power Steer. Fluid 155134
Chng Interior Bulb 152132
Distributor 150724
Timing Tensioners 150460
Timing belts (2) 150460
Drive Belts (2) 150460
Water Pump 150460
Thermostat 150460
Air Filter 150460
Fuel Filter 150460
PCV Valve 150460
Tuneup - Spark plugs/Cap/Rotor/Wire 150460
Ch Antifreeze 150460
Brake Pads 150460
2 Front Brake Rotors 150460
1 Rear shoe 150460
New Battery 150460
New Wiper blades 150460
Fix Int Light 150460
Oil Change 148478
Rotate Tires 145415
Adj & Clean Brakes 145415
Oil Change 145415
Oil Change 142434
Replace front flex pipe – leaking 142434
Check Antifreeze 142434
Oil Change 139332
Relpace AC hose and Condener 139332
Replace Fuel Filter 139332
Replace Air Filter 139332
Retrofit/charge AC system 137831
Oil Chng 136227
Outer Tie Rod (Driver?) 136227
Pas Upper Ball Joint 136227
Wheel Alignment 136227
Rotate Tires 136227
Adj & Clean Brakes 136227
Upper directional bulb, driver side 133073
Oil Chng 133073
New Muffler 130400
Oil Chng 130119
Rotate/Balance tires 127920
Oil Chng 127127
Adj Parking Brake/Clean Brakes/Check for Wear 127127
Lube front bearings? 127127
Adj Shift Lock Cable 126950
Replace Battery Cable 126750
Oil Chng 123964
Spark plug, wire, cap, rotor/ 122875
Adj Timing/Valve Clearance/Idle Adj
Transmission Oil(+30000) 122875
Change CV Right Front Axle & Boot
New Battery 122334
Oil Chng 120683
Replace Upper Radiator Hose 120683
Replace lower Radiator Hose 120683
Air Filter(+15000) 120683
Fuel Filter(+15000) 120683
Flush Coolant(+18000) 120683
Rotate Tires 120683
Oil Chng 118074
Oil Chng 115152
Oil Chng 112350
Change Radio 112350
Oil Chng 109247
Oil Chng 106220
Rotate Tires/Adj Pressure(+7500) 106220
Adj Parking Brake/Clean Brakes/Check for Wear(+7500) 106220
Change Front Bearings 104157
Oil Chng 103233
Oil Chng 100378

BlUAc

wow!!! youve been busy you work on your car more than me. Any the "click" you hear usually is the axel I dont no if that is what you mean by "rod" and you should use some injector cleaner I saw that you used the techron but that isn't much of a injector cleaner but more of a octane booster and used to evaporate water form cheap gas try using the cleaner and how bout your egr may it be stuck open?

hondadude

Clean the EGR ports, pain in the butt job on that car.
Turn the key on until the Check Engine Light goes out, then crank the engine over.
This allows the fuel rail to come up to pressure because a spray mist from the injector is easier to burn/ignite then dribbles from the injector.

pungent

Took the car to my cousin's shop. Worked with their top mechanic. I told him I suspected the EGR as the problem. He disconnects the vac line and the car no longer hesitated or stumbled at 1500 RPMs.

Replace EGR valve. Road test.
Problem *NOT* cleared up! Check of the in/out ports to the EGR show ports are clean.

My cousin calls a Honda tech. The Honda tech FAXes him TSB 98-074.

The symptom is given as "An engine hesitation or stumble can be felt under light acceleration between 1500 and 2000 rpm." Probable cause is "Carbon build-up has
restricted the EGR ports into the intake manifold runners." The solution is to remove the brass plugs over the EGR ports and clean the ports out. Had to leave the car overnight and will find out the reults tomorrow.

This TSB describes my symptoms to a tee. The other "pieces" to this mystery also point to a problem with these EGR ports (my cuz sez there are four that will need to be drilled out and a 'half-moon' cap will need to go on top). hondadude - were you referring to this or were you referring to a buildup at the in/out ports near the EGR valve?

I took a copy of the TSB home but it is hard to read. I'll get the original back tomorrow. Can anyone post this TSB? Sorry - as a newbie, I am unaware of a TSB archive - or if one is kept for a car this old.

The purpose of this follow up here is to have the "pros" chyme in and let me know if I should not get my hopes up too high - or warn me of any 'gotchas' before my car goes in for open heart surgery tomorrow morning.

TIA

BlUAc

yes that is exactly what he is talking about

hondadude

yeah, I said that it was a pain in the butt to clean them; ya think I'd call removing 2 12mm nuts from the bottom of the EGR valve a pain in the butt?
Never seen the ports under the valve get plugged up.
I don't lie to people at this website,
having the ports cleaned will solve the stumble problem.

pungent

Handadude - you were right on the money! The job was done today per http://home.comcast.net/~em-engineering/T2T013.pdf
and the car is running better than it has in about 8 years.

I was unaware of the reality that "[you] never seen the ports under the valve get plugged up" and was unsure if the pain in the butt part of it was related to digging out stubborn carbon. It took some digging to get to the TSB that described the likely area of clogging and the remediation. Yup - drilling out plugs and pulling them out with a slide hammer is the true 'pain in the butt', relatively speaking.

I appreciate you sharing what you know. Boards like this obviously save the 'do-it-your-selfers' a load of money and it also helps idiots like me financially because it minimizes the 'trial-and-error' loop at the mechanic.

Anyway, hoping that my situation here is documented clearly enough so that future folks who do a search in this group on the same symptom/problem can benefit by all the good info in this thread.