bogle

I decided to buy a 1997 honda accord wagon so i could drive a better mileage rig. I got one with some dents and 242k mi. The low price of JDM engine, trans made it seem like a safe bet.

Right after I started driving it, I noticed the brakes would shudder a lot and figured it was time to do the brakes. Then I learned about the hub-over-rotor setup. Annoyed with that, I just grabbed two steering knuckles for a 1998 CL 2.3 and swapped them in. I put new pads on and reused the junkyard rotors thinking, hey, they'll be easier to switch later.

While I was in there, I noticed one of the CV boots had a pinhole leak and replaced that axle. While I was messing with the axles, I wanted to make sure I had them in right. So, while it was up on stands, I turned on the engine and set the trans to drive. The wheels were both spinning. Great. So then I did put it into Park, not thinking about what I was doing. A few odd noises later, the wheels stopped.

I lowered the car, tightened everything up, and drove it about 10 feet before it made some popping noise. Now, the transmission won't engage. If I go Drive or Reverse, nothing happens (although the speedo shows that i'm moving, which is not unexpected since the VSS appears to be mounted on the engine itself). Once I go back to Park from Drive or Reverse, I hear continuous rattling until I turn off the engine. If I go back to Drive or Reverse from Park (during rattling) then the rattling goes away.

So now I'm thinking it's time to do the JDM trans swap. I'm not really in the mood, nor have lots of time to figure out a whole engine/trans swap. But I think I can swing a trans swap.

So I have a few questions for fellow DIYers:

1. Is it possible to recover from this situation without a trans swap? I considered putting the car back up on stands and trying to **** with rotating the wheels while the transmission was in various gears and see if something slips back into place. (Trans fluid appears fine, that's not the issue.)

2. If trans swap is the right thing to do, should I consider doing the engine at the same time? I would rather do the engine later, whenever it blows up, but maybe it's not much harder to do both at once? I kinda doubt that.

DeadlockRiff

You more than likely destroyed the parking pawl in the transmission. That in turn let that big hunk of metal float around and screw up some other things while swimming away.
Nothing short of pulling it out and setting on the bench for inspection/repair is gonna get it up again.

If the engine is in tip top shape I wouldn't bother if you're driving it around lightly.
The transmission swap itself isn't too difficult, it's pretty straight forward.

bogle

Yeah that's what i figured. The engine has lots of miles (odo says 242k, no idea really) and I've only driven it for 150 miles.

bogle

What's a good write up on the trans swap? I found this three-part video on the process:


And this in the FAQ area:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-accord-1990-2002-2/how-auto-5spd-swap-%2A%2Alots-pics%2A%2A-1237137/

NZXTInerTia

Its very cut and dry, unbolt and remove. Check the manual conversion threads in the FAQ, they have a lot of detailed pictures.

MAD_MIKE

Err, the wagon uses 282mm front rotors and the coupe/sedan 2.3CL use 260mm front rotors. You have reduced the braking capability of the wagon...
That is for a later discussion though...

That was probably the parking pawl bouncing off the parking pawl sprocket.

The arm is spring loaded so it may have just bounced off the parking sprocket.
If the transmission was damaged the final drive would not work, since your speedometer is working then the final drive is working. This is where the VSS picks up its speedometer reading.

You have an issue between the final drive and the wheels, most likely an axle was not fully inserted into the transmission or the stub axle broke.
I actually had the stub axle break on me about ~2yrs ago.
Was driving fine, came to a stop, tried to accelerate and nothing, just the nose that you described. Still have the chunks of that one.

Jack the car back up, and look for any issues with the axles. Try rotating either wheel while the trans is in Park. If the axles are still connected/working you should be able to turn one wheel clockwise and the opposite side will turn counter clockwise(differential).

If you cannot see any problems, turn the car on place it in R or D and watch the axles, they should both rotate smoothly, if one is stopped or jerking then it is most likely that side(if the other side is rotating smoothly). If one is jerking and the other side does not move at all, the non moving side most likely is broken.
The transmission is easy to do on its own, as there are three mounts that connected to the engine while you remove the trans from the bottom. Look in my sig on a how to remove/replace the AT in a 94-97 Accord.

bogle

If the problem was as you describe, why does the transmission make no noise in Drive (unlikely that both axles popped out, i only changed one of them!) and then start to rattle in Park?

DeadlockRiff

The parking pawl tries to engage in park eh?

bogle

oh and it can't i guess. that makes sense. so i did jack this thing up again and found out that indeed the axle i put in did pop out. so now i'm taking the knuckle off again so i can pop it in.

bogle

oh and it is obvious that the rotor is too small, now that i'm looking for it. i am using pads, caliper and bracket from the original so all i should need is a different rotor, right? anything that is 4x115 and 282mm?

MAD_MIKE

When the axle is not engaged to the trans the only thing stopping the transmissions output is the brakes. No brakes the output shafts(axles) will spin.
The parking pawl is just designed to lock the transmission in gear. Although many people use the PARK gear as the parking brake this is incorrect. Give a car on a steep enough hill a good jolt and it will roll down the hill.

I'm guessing the Acura CL V6 front rotor may be your go to...


If so, congratulations, you have stumbled upon the HOR for 90-97 Wagon owners.
And those of use who want to maintain 4 lugs but HOR and the larger rotors.

bogle

After i fully sank the axle into the final drive (tapping it for a few minutes until it popped), everything works as expected. Thanks for pointing out what the VSS output means in this context and also the pawl spring action and the idea of what the pawl actually does is all very helpful for me to understand!

I thought the v6 were 5 lug hubs so I didn't even look there. but yeah, a 4x115 282mm honda rotor finishes it, this is the hub-over-rotor ticket for wagon owners. On cb7tuner.com there is talk of swapping calipers for larger rotors, etc. But it's not obvious that you can mix and match for the wagon. The only problem I had in getting the wagon caliper bracket on the CL kunckle was that I had to bend the top dust shield out of the way a little bit to give the bracket a few extra mm so the holes would line up. I don't think TAS auto even sells a wagon kit anymore, but it was ridiculously overpriced anyways. They must have cancelled it because the 3rd party hub manufacturer stopped making them. The only way to get these hubs without spending $150+ ea at a dealer is a junkyard. I got complete CL knuckles for $35/ea and both accord wagon front axles for $35/total from LKQ.

bogle

How can I tell which acura rotor has the right offset for the hub size? It would need to be the same offset as the cl 2.3 rotor, no doubt.

MAD_MIKE

There is a slight difference of .3mm...
'98 CL 2.3


but I don't think it will matter. I know most folks chuck the rotor screws, but they are there for a reason. Use them to secure the rotor and make sure everything fits correctly.

bogle

.3mm? 64.15 to 64.16 sounds like .01mm, no ? that has to be 'nothing' in the world of brake pads and calipers.

is there a year of accord v6 4 lug disc that is an exact match? if not, this seems like the next best thing. 97 acura hub + 98 acura v6 rotors

MAD_MIKE

.3mm in height.

95-97 V6 is still a HOR, 98+ Accord v6 is 5 lug.

bogle

I'm definitely not the first person to put a CL 2.3 hub with a CL 3.0 rotor.

http://www.superhonda.com/forum/f13/...ersion-235730/

bogle

BTW, I finally got the picture on my computer, here is the 98 CL 3.0 rotor + 98 CL 2.3 hub on a 97 Accord. Since I swapped the entire knuckle and not just the hub+bearing, I also got the CL 2.3 dust shield, which had to be bent out of the way to not rub on the rotor.

MAD_MIKE

Is this the same clearance as with the original upright/rotors?
Or is it cockeyed a bit because there is nothing securing the rotor to the hub at the moment?(screws/lug nuts)

bogle

It looks awfully close in that picture but it has more to do with the camera angle, there is plenty of space when you look at it from the side. The back of the rotor is closer to the caliper bracket than the front, but it doesn't touch and the caliper slides into the right place for even wear. I can slide the old rotors back on next time I have the wheels off to compare. When I first installed these things, I visually compared the height and thickness of the hub-over section and the enitre rotor and was satisfied that they appeared to be the same.

If I accelerate while turning sharply (like up a circular onramp) then I notice some odd friction or resistance but it's only if I'm accelerating. There's no horrible metal-on-metal sounds (and the caliper bracket and rotor have essentially fixed distances anyways) just some minor friction and only if I accelerate hard up the sharp circular onramp. Still trying to figure out what that is and it didn't even happen last time so I'm wondering if it is some artifact of new, full size brake pads.