bsdubois

We have a 1997 Honda Accord EX with 179k miles. We are the original purchaser of the vehicle.

The Transmission was replaced about four years ago with a Jasper rebuilt. The rebuild shot craps in about 2 years and 9 months. Jasper replaced the defective rebuild without any question. My local Jasper Engine and Transmission installer, Rideout Transmission, is absolutely the best transmission repair/replacement facility I have dealt with. They are top notch and they stand behind their work. This is refreshing in today's society. The car ran well for several months following the replacement of the transmission and I don't think there is an issue with the transaxle. I don't believe the engine stopping unexpectedly and intermittently is related to the transaxle.


First the car died about a year ago and would not restart. I replaced the igniter and the internal coil. I also replaced the internal oil seal and external "O" ring oil seal. I also replaced the rotor and cap. This seemed to fix the issue. I have not replaced the spark plug wires. I checked them at night for arcing and did not see any. I inserted a screwdriver, with a ground wire attached, in the space between the valve cover and suspended spark plug wires. No arcing from the spark plug wires to the screwdriver was noted. I replaced the spark plugs, with Genuine Honda plugs, when I renewed the Hitachi Distributor.

The car seemed to run fine for a while, however, gas mileage really sucked. I replaced the upstream Oxygen Sensor as it was the original sensor. I had replaced the downstream Oxygen Sensor (of the cat) about two years ago due to a bad heater code.

I replaced the starter motor, with a NAPA rebuild, as the solenoid was shot (the engine would start if I tapped on the solenoid). It was more cost effective to replace the entire unit with a rebuild. The Alternator was replaced by the Dealer, with a Genuine Honda Rebuild, at approximately 94,000 miles. We purchased an extended Honda warranty when we purchased the vehicle. The original alternator bearings were whining and I convinced the Dealer to replace the unit before the 100K warranty expired.

I replaced the ignition switch as I could not find the stamping indicating it had been replaced. I also replaced the main relay. I removed the main relay, looked for cold solder joints and could not find any. I could not see the relay contacts and it was impossible to determine the condition of the relay contacts visually. It seemed logical to replace the Main Relay as the cost of the part was reasonable.

I removed the entire thermostat housing and replaced the thermostat. I also replaced the oval "O" ring between the block and the thermostat housing. I also replaced the "O" ring on the end of the metal connecting pipe that runs behind the engine. One end of the pipe connects to the water pump and the other the thermostat housing. (I replaced the thermostat housing after the VTEC assembly was reinstalled). I removed the VTEC Valve Spool Assembly and Solenoid as a unit. This process was much easier as the thermostat housing was not in the way. I removed the VTEC solenoid and then disassembled and cleaned the spool valve assembly. I reassembled the valve spool assembly, replaced the "O" ring seals and attached the VTEC solenoid to Spool Valve Assembly. I replaced the three channel "O" ring and filter wire to the VTEC Spool Valve Assembly. The entire Assembly was attached to cylinder head with the three mounting bolts. The solenoid weeps a small amount of oil out of of the small tube surrounding the one electrical conductor that exits the bottom of the solenoid. I don't know if a small amount of leaking oil is normal or not. I suppose the internal seal might be defective and the solenoid might need to be replaced. I topped off the Cooling System with Genuine Honda Coolant and properly bled the air out of the system. I turned the heater on to make certain no air was trapped in the heater loop. I replaced both thermal switches (thermostat housing and front heater hose connector) earlier this year. The cooling fans turn on, run properly and turn off as determined by the fan controller and thermal switches.

I removed the injectors, removed the intake manifold cover and cleaned all the carbon build-up out of each orifice (one on each of the four intake runners) on the intake manifold. I replaced the cover gasket (new Genuine Honda part), re-installed the cover and torqued the bolts. I removed the EGR valve and cleaned the ports and the needle valve. I reinstalled the cleaned EGR valve, added a new Genuine Honda gasket and torqued the two nuts. I replaced the four injector seal rings with new Genuine Honda seals. I reinstalled the injectors and the injector rail assembly as a unit (I did not remove the injectors from the rail assembly).

I removed, disassembled, cleaned and reinstalled the Fast Idle Valve. I replaced all three "O" rings that seal the valve to the intake manifold (I also replaced one bolt that I dropped and could not find). I also replaced the large "O" ring under the end cover of the Fast Idle Valve. I removed and cleaned the Idle Air Control Valve. I replace the figure 8 shaped "O" ring on reassembly and I also replaced the two small diameter heater hoses running to the IAC Valve. I cleaned the Throttle body and butterfly while the snorkel was removed. The air filter has less than 5K miles and is relatively clean.

I replaced the fuel filter with an Genuine Honda filter (Great UTube video by Bushougoma. This Video makes a PITA job much easier. Honda Engineers really screwed the pooch when they moved the fuel filter from high on the firewall to a point above the steering box and below the master cylinder). I checked the fuel pressure before and after replacing the filter. The pressure was 35 psi with the vacuum hose attached to the Pressure Regulator. The pressure reading climbed to 46 psi with the vacuum hose removed and pinched. The pressure dropped to 35 psi when the vacuum hose was reattached to the Pressure Regulator. These pressures are nominal pressures per the Helm shop manual for the 1997 Honda Accord Ex (49 state VTEC 4 sp auto). There was no smell of gasoline and the pressure regulator did not show any signs of leakage.

I also replaced the negative terminal on the battery. The end attached to the transmission appeared to be corroded and some of the conductors were unwinding from the bundle. A few of the 22 gauge (or smaller) conductors had broken off at the crimp connector where the cable attaches to the end terminal. The battery is a Genuine Honda Battery and it is about one year old.

The engine starts, runs at fast idle, until the engine comes up to operating temperature, reduces to idle speed and idles smoothly. The engine accelerates well and I thought I had the issue repaired. The car ran great for two trips. Each trip was about 25 to 40 miles round trip. The car would occasionally die upon stopping. The engine was at operating temperature on all but two occasions. Two times the car had set overnight and ambient temperature was between 50 ºF and 60 ºF. One time the car died approximately 1,000 ft from the house and the second time was approximately ½ mile from the house. Neither time was the engine up to operating temperature. The engine, at full operating temperature, died several times when both my wife, and I, stopped at a stop sign or stop light. It also died during a slow speed left hand turn. Each time the transmission selector was moved to neutral and the engine restarted immediately. The car ran fine and did not die again. There were two different occasions when the engine died, it was restarted and it died again when it reached idle (three times in a row). My wife advanced the throttle on the fourth restart and dropped it into drive. The engine continued to run. I have noticed two different times the engine cutout during wide open throttle acceleration. This is new as all previous Wide Open Throttle conditions accelerated quickly and I only pulled my foot out of the throttle when I reached the speed limit. I am nearly 100% it is not a power issue as all the idiot lights are illuminated after the engine dies. The new (replaced in February or March) ignition switch appears to be good.

I have checked for MIL codes and none are set. I have also checked for pending codes and there are none. I check for any and all codes prior to removing the battery cable. I have rechecked for both code types each step of the way. I don't have an oscilloscope and I think I might be at the point this is the only item that will allow me to determine the cause of the problem.

I suppose the Idle Air Control might not be functioning correctly. I believe it is a stepper motor and it is driven by a pulsed DC signal from the ECU. I need to check the shop manual to see if there is a quick and dirty way to test the IAC for proper opening and closing. I suppose Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor might be failing, however, I do not have a MIL code indicating a failure. I suppose the throttle position sensor might be failing, however, several Utube videos indicate they rarely fail. I suppose the cam angle sensor or crank angle sensors might be defective, however, I have no MIL codes indicating an issue. I suppose the ECU might be developing an intermittent failure and this could be killing the engine. I don't have a "known good" ECU to substitute as is suggested in the shop manual.

The best news is that I am not out one cent for labor as I have done all the work myself (with the exception of the transaxle replacement). Many of the parts were "O" ring replacement to stop leaks and items that are normal maintenance items.

I may run a wire from the distributor connector pulse pin (yellow-black wire... if my memory is correct) to an LED inside the vehicle. This is the signal from the ECU to the igniter. I am interested to see if the LED stops blinking before/as the engine dies. This would indicate an ignition/ECU/wiring issue. I may also attempt to run a wire to the positive side of the fuel pump electrical connector. I will be interested to see if the fuel pump stops running before/as the engine dies. It would be nice to see if the pump is receiving power when the engine cuts out at WOT.

I apologize for the length of my post. Please note many of the attempts to repair this vehicle have been done over a period of about 16 to 18 months. The fuel filter replacement and pressure testing, cleaning of IAC, EGR valve and EGR intake ports, VTEC Spool (and "o" ring replacement) and battery ground wire replacement have been my latest attempt to resolve the intermittent engine shutoff issues.

I am about to go completely nuts (not a far distance to go) attempting to resolve the intermittent issue with the engine. I will greatly appreciate any suggestions (except getting rid of the car), thoughts or constructive criticism. I have read and reread multiple posts on this forum, view multiple Utube videos, read the shop manual and spoken with friends. I am at the end of my road and I hope I have overlooked something really simple.

Thank you in advance for you kind assistance.

holmesnmanny

you can hook up a fuel pressure tester from Harbor Freight and gently lay the hood on it so you can see the gauge in the windshield. Then drive around and see if fuel pressure is dropping off when the car dies. It could be a bad ecu. You can pull the ecu and open it up and look for burned spots.

bsdubois

Thank you for your kind and prompt suggestions. I must apologize that I forgot to mention I pulled the ECU and removed both covers on the unit. I did not see any evidence of burnt components. I also looked for swelled or bulging electrolytic capacitors and I found nothing. I found a site www.autoecuecm.com and their site indicates they repair Honda ECU units and warrant them for life. They will be my list steps (I am not certain what order... perhaps ....near the bottom if) I cannot find any other issues. I would be interested to learn if anyone has used this service and if they were pleased with, or unhappy with, the results.

I still have the rented fuel pressure testing kit from Autozone and I may reconnect it and route the hose and gauge to a visible location from the engine compartment. I will then warm up the vehicle and attempt a few WOT passes on the highway and note the fuel pressure. It is possible that I am loosing pressure and this might be the root cause. I will let you know what, if anything, I discover from this test.

My next step is to find the troubleshooting procedures for the cam sensor in the distributor and the crank position sensors located on the pulley end of the crankshaft behind the pulley. I also want to check the function of the MAP Sensor, Throttle Position Sensor, Air Temperature sensor, and Idle Air Control Valve (IACV) (and any other engine sensors I may have failed to mention previously).

If all the items, in the previous paragraph, check out ... then, I think my next project will be to remove the fuel tank. We are careful when we purchase petrol and only use "name brand" stations. It is impossible to find fuel today that does not contain 10% ethyl alcohol blended. Alcohol is hydroscopic and I will be looking for rust and gunk for water accumulating from over twenty-one years. I will definitely change the filter/bag/strainer that attaches to the suction end of the electric fuel pump. It is possible the mesh is full of debris and gunk and does not allow fuel to pass well at times. A new Airtex is about $130.00, is made in the USA and has a lifetime warranty. I may throw a new one in the fuel tank while it is out of the vehicle. I would hate to have to pull and replace the fuel tank twice.

I don't like the idea of throwing parts and money at a car, however, I have nearly run out of ideas.

My final thought is to find a good auto-electric jobber or automobile troubleshooting jobber and see if they will attach an oscilloscope to see if the ECU is receiving the proper signals from all the sensors and also learn if the ECU is sending the proper signals to the various devices it controls. I would like to know what the short term fuel trim and the long term fuel trim values are running. I hope they are null or nearly so.

Thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to provide suggestions for the repair of a very frustrating problem


Sincerely,

Brían S. Du Bois
Evansville, IN