wmj011

1995 Honda Accord LX AT, 275k miles

I start up the cold car (after she has been sitting all night).

Starts up fine no problems. Sounds great as she is warming up.

Just as she seems to be getting to peak temperature, when I expect the cooling fan to come on for the first time, she dies.

I wait 3 minutes. Start her up again. She dies again. I do this 3 or 4 times, after which she runs fine for the most part.

The above happens every single time. Not just sometimes.

Tonight when I was going up hill toward my home, maybe when the cooling fan was coming on, she died again. I rolled into my garage, started her up again, and waited for the cooling fans to come on. They did, but I noticed the red hand break light and red seat belt light dim a tiny bit when the fan came on. Is this anything?

The CEL comes on when she dies, but when I re-start the engine the CEL does not light up. I tried jumping the 2 pin connector under the glove box. I did not see the CEL blinking.

I replaced the Main Relay, on a hunch, to no avail. Same problem. Wasted $80.
Also I tried jiggling the key to see if the start switch is failing. Seems to be ok. But who knows.

I just had it tuned up, the timing belt replaced, header gasket replaced. I hate to see all that money wasted. It was not dying prior to this work being done. Do you think the mechanic could have jostled something inadvertently?

The header gasket was leaking coolant. Could leaking coolant have damaged a sensor in the area?

One last point. As I mentioned above, she starts up fine, warms up fine, idles fine. When she runs, she runs and sounds like a new car. But for the engine dying, she is perfect.

I hate to give up on her. Any ideas about how to trouble shoot the problem? The guys at the dealership are giving me weird looks, as if I should take the hint that this is a lost cause and that they do not want to be complicit in throwing good money after bad.

BrotherAli

I am a n00b but it sounds like you definitely have an electrical problem since your lights are dimming when the fans should be kicking in. Did the problem happen right after leaving the shop?

wmj011

I am not sure if it started happening after it came out of the shop recently. The lights dimming a bit is something I just noticed tonight. I am going to keep an eye on that more closely.

I also guess it's an electrical problem. Where to start?

As I mentioned, I replaced the Main Relay to no avail.

Not sure if the slight dimming of some dashboard lights is significant. The fans did come on and the car kept running.

Lost Again

Can't hurt to clean the cable ends and be sure they are tight. If you still have the OE radio - be sure you have the code for it.

tim73

Interesting. Can you start the engine cold with radiator cap off? Watch for coolant shootng out of cap. Also, has it ever overheated? What about water in the oil?

On another note, has your alternator gotten covered in coolant? Does the car start slowly...or does i turn over normally?

Final thought, O2 sensor? Has it been replced ever? I only say this, as you says it dies right when it warms up. Which is the same time that the engine goes into "closed loop" mode, and starts using the O2 sensor for fuel management.

wmj011

Which cable ends? AFAIK, there are lots of cables in any given car

wmj011

>>Can you start the engine cold with radiator cap off?
>>Watch for coolant shooting out of cap.
Have not tried this yet. But what would it show? Wouldn't that allow air into the cooling system?

>>Also, has it ever overheated?
It did overheat slightly one time. But it ran fine afterwards. What are you hinting at?

>>What about water in the oil?
I had the oil changed during the last tune-up, so there should be no water in the oil now.

>>On another note, has your alternator gotten covered in coolant?
Not sure. Will have to check on that.

>>Does the car start slowly...or does i turn over normally?
Turns over normally. She starts up fine, no problems, until she dies as she is getting warmed up.

>>Final thought, O2 sensor? Has it been replced ever?
>>I only say this, as you says it dies right when it warms up.
>>Which is the same time that the engine goes into "closed loop" mode,
>>and starts using the O2 sensor for fuel management
I don't think this has ever been replaced. Tell me more about the "closed loop" mode. Is this where the ignition control module comes into play?

holmesnmanny

You need to get that check engine code. As soon as the engine dies, short the service connector and get the code.

holmesnmanny

Spend about five minutes making sure you get the correct code. Seems like the first time trying to get a code you always get it wrong.

wmj011

Is this the right way?

1) Start the car and wait for her to die
2) Short the 2 pin connector
3) Read the code

I tried shorting the 2 pin connector before I started her up. When she died I didn't see the CEL blinking. BTW, the CEL light goes off when I re-start the engine. Does this mean a diagnostic code is not being thrown?

holmesnmanny

No, it should still be there. You need the ignition to be on the on position so the dash lights should be on. Make sure you're using a paperclip or something that is conducive.

Don't try to restart the car first. Just short it as soon as it dies.

wmj011

I'll give it another try, but I don't think a code is being thrown. I used a paper clip one time and then I used a copper wire just to be sure. No blinking CEL that I can see.

Laura Ilkenhans

check the connector athe tdc sensor as they worked in that area on the timing .it also sends its code in the closed loop cycle

wmj011

I had honda review their work after this problem showed up. Still, it could be something they missed. Is the tdc sensor easy to get to? I do my own motorcycle maintenance. I am less familiar with cars.

I am going to be getting a friend who is good at this sort of thing to help me. The tdc sensor will be on the list.

Laura Ilkenhans

the tdc sensor is on the crak above the pulleys .best bet is to get engine codes they should be there even if the light went off. check the connectors for the fan. the pins are in all the way. and grounds

holmesnmanny

I was just going by what you said. You said it was throwing a code. If it's not, I would first test the coil.

Does the battery light come on ? Does it idle low before dying ?

wmj011

I don't think it is throwing a code. I tried the paper clip in the 2 pin trick, but did not see the CEL blinking.

I think the battery light does come on as well as the oil light, both red in the upper left part of the dash.

It seems to idle ok before dying.

I am going to reproduce the problem again tomorrow and pay more attention to the things you mentioned as well as try to read the CEL.

Bad_dude

It seems a lot of guessing. I'm no expert but I'll give you what I have seen before:
1) I think you should first test your alternator. If the fan comes on the engine turns off, then it could be the alternator not kicking out enough voltage. So put the voltmeter on it first to make sure you get over 14V at cold start up. While you are at it, check your ground. Bad ground will shut your engine off on high current draw. Bad alternator will give dash light trouble. The CEl comes on is not always a code but the alternator regulator is going bad inside the alternator.

2) Check your spark plugs cables by putting the ohmmeter on it. What brand cables do you have? http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193763
Make sure the resistance for each wire is not far out from the other. If the wire on cyl 2 or cyl 3 can give you this. Bad wire on cyl 1 some times no start.

3)Take the dizzy off and see its condition and make sure there's no oil in it.

4) Take the oil cap off check for water vapors and take the radiator cap off check for oil. Then do a compression test. A leaky head is always bad no matter how much it is leaking.

5) You might have a bad relay on the fan since you said the car shuts off when the fan comes on.

Try those items first and come back here and report and we'll go from there.

wmj011

I just reproduced the problem. The car had been sitting all day, so she was cold.

She starts up fine, one turn of the key.

She died just as she was reaching peak temp, about when I expected the fans to come on.

No CEL. The oil and battery lights did come on. She was idling fine, right at the 700rpm mark; she did not drop below this mark just before dying.

I have seen the CEL light come on at other times, but not this one.

tim73

Closed loop is when the computer decides the engine is warm enough. At this time is stops using engine coolant temp from the ect sensor as the method for determining how much fuel the engine gets. Instead it uses the o2 sensor. And adds or takes away fuel as needed according to the data that sensor is putting out.

Anyway, if you can't get it to throw a code. You need to figure out if it's losing spark or fuel. No, it won't suck air into coolant with radiator cap off. However if head gasket is blown, combustion gas could be going into coolant, and that would be blowing out of radiator.

wmj011

Finally figured out how to get a diagnostic code.

Got a code of 15 ( One long blink, 5 short blinks) which is "ignition output signal" according to my Haynes manual.

Where do I begin with that?

tim73

Can you test ignition coil for voltage, then test for dwell time? That should at least let you know your coil is good or bad.

wmj011

Yes, I will do that. I guess replace the coil if it is bad. If the coil is good what is the next step?

BTW, I followed your suggestion and started the car with the radiator cap off. Coolant stayed put. So that is a good sign.

That was a good idea; very simple way to tell if the head gasket is bad.

tim73

Then the wire between the coil and distributor. Then the distributor cap(Which i have seen fail), thent he wires, then the plugs. Dont overlook ANYTHING. I scratched my head for three days looking for a non-ignition problem. Problem turned out to be a defective, BRAND NEW, distributor cap.

doctorbee

well your clue is that it dies when the fan is supposed to come on. it may be that instead of coming on the fans are shorting out and killing your car.

the main fuses in a car are fusible links that melt when they get too hot and solidify when they cool down, restoring continuity in the process. my guess is that the main fuse is blowing when power is turned on to the fans by the ECU and the fans are shorting out.

try taking the fan relay out and let it warm up. keep an eye on temp to make sure it doesn't overheat.