Bjorn20

I'm expecting to make anywhere in the range of 160-180 at the wheels, in a 91 civic hatch.

been looking at the BfGoodrich G-force drag radials. Keep in mind, most of my driving is on the street, and like everyone else i like to lay down the throttle once in a while but i dont seem to go anywhere with my current 60 horses.

Theres this dude with close to the same setup as me, equipped with some sort of falken azenic tire, and sais he spins 2nd. I'm going to be putting down more power than him, and i dont want to worry about traction being one of my weak points. At the track of course....

Been reading on here a little bit trying to learn, according to nsxtasy, going with 225 or 235 mm tires is NOT the right answer. But instead to have better compound and stick with something closer to stock that wont rub such as 195 or 205. Ive honestly always been under the assumption of "wider tire, more contact patch = more traction". The huge 225/50/15 mickey thompsons look sick with suspension all the way up though

Wondering if drag radials would be a huge overkill for my power range? Just dont want to have to worry about spinning with street tires when nailing the throttle. I do want to get to a track this summer to see what times i can run, but other than that, pretty much all my driving is done on the street. This is also my daily driver.

I'm thinking the best option for me is to get a set of street tires, and another set of drag radials when i want to have some fun. Guessing you would want to have all 4 tires be the same and not have say drag radials up front and street tires in the back, and just switch them around for that specific occasion?

For price range.. anywhere between $400-500 for a set, a little more or little less i can deal with, its just a range to work with.

and ya speaking of those mickey thompsons, would i honestly need those at the track, or would the bfgoodrich's do the job for under 200 whp?

Weather in my area.... occasional rain. We have snow but this will be in the summer so there will no snow, average day is around 60-80 degrees, some rare days we hit 90-100.

nsxtasy

Drag radials wear very rapidly. If you use them on the street, you might get only 5K miles or thereabouts before having to replace them.

The Falken Azenis RT-615 is about the stickiest street tire you can buy. (Street tires normally exclude drag radials or R compound track tires.)

It's also noting the difference in construction between the Azenis and the drag radials. Azenis are designed for cornering, such as at the track or on winding mountain roads; drag radials are designed for acceleration at the dragstrip. The Azenis (like R compound track tires) are designed with stiff sidewalls so that they can grip during cornering. Drag radials are designed with softer sidewalls that are reinforced so that the tires can be deflated to increase the size of the contact patch.

If you really want to optimize your tires for the street as well as the dragstrip, the best way to do that is to pick up a set of cheap used wheels, so you can have one set of drag radials for the strip, and another set of longer-lasting street tires for the street.

Based on your post, I assume you're talking about the dragstrip, not the track.

Lots of points here. Tire treadwidth rarely makes a significant difference, and never at the dragstrip; even those who claim that there's any difference only talk about cornering capability, not straight-line acceleration.

Also, when you get wider tires, you are usually getting tires with a taller sidewall. That means that the tires are larger in diameter. This results in slower acceleration (like putting a taller final drive gear in your transmission).

Nope. As long as the inflation of the tires is supporting the weight of the car, the size of the contact patch depends only on the pressure in the tires and the weight of the car, and not on the width of the tires. For example, a 2100-pound Civic with its tires inflated to 30 pounds per square inch is going to have contact patches whose area totals 70 square inches, and that's true regardless of whether the tires are 225 mm steamrollers or skinny 175 mm winter tires. The shape of those contact patches will be different, but the size will be the same.

Here, read this article.

You mean the dragstrip, right?



Those last couple of questions, I'll leave for the drag racers. If you don't get the answers you need here, you could also try asking in the Drag Racing forum.

LMK if you need recommendations on less-grippy longer-lasting street tires, if you decide to go ahead and get the extra wheels. If so, remember to mention the diameter of your wheels if they're not the stock ones.

Bjorn20

wow that was a quick and helpful post.

Yea I've heard drag radials wear rapidly. I dont drive a whole lot either. All i do is drive to school (maybe 10 miles) and to work (1 mile). But obviosly you dont need to be driving on drag radials for that kind of driving....

those Falken Azenis RT-615 tires are a lot cheaper than drag radials lmao. Yea i think im going go for the cheap rim on drag radials, and more expensive rim on the street tire such as those falkens.

and yes i was refering to the dragstrip when i said track.

I never knew tire pressure is what made your contact patch. Yea it can inflate/deflate your tire but i never thought about it that way. So is there a reason why like 80% of this forum uses wide *** tires for the street?

You said in a different post you would choose the 225/50/15 drag radial setup for a dragstrip. So a wider tire has a better cooling effect also has to do with handling. Ah thats why you want wider drag radials, lots of heat there.

Ive waited a good 2 years to get this motor setup going, odds are im going to be getting on it a lot, so probably wont want that less grippy tire.

I will definately read that article.

A larger diameter tire accelerates slower? I've heard so much about how a 16" diameter tire will yeiled a higher top speed than a 15". When you say a xx" are you referring to the rim or tire? I think technically both but im not sure anymore

So if i honestly go with a 185mm or 195mm wide tire, i would technically have better acceleration than a 215 or 225mm wide tire?

looks like i just figured out why when drag racing, to have the tires such such a low pressure such as 10 psi. Something i dont think i will ever understand is this guy that had like a xx/40/15 tire on a turbo del sol, which supposably ran 10's. He wanted his tires set to 60 psi???

why does tirerack not have falkens?



Modified by Bjorn20 at 8:51 PM 3/18/2007

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I never knew tire pressure is what made your contact patch. Yea it can inflate/deflate your tire but i never thought about it that way. So is there a reason why like 80% of this forum uses wide *** tires for the street?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not 80 percent. But those who do, are usually under the mistaken belief that it gives them better performance. What's really funny is that so many people get wider tires, but really crappy tires, that give them performance that's much worse than they would get with narrower, stickier tires.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You said in a different post you would choose the 225/50/15 drag radial setup for a dragstrip.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think that was someone with a Prelude. Preludes need bigger tires than Civics.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A larger diameter tire accelerates slower?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, a tire with a larger outer diameter accelerates slower. The outer diameter depends on the size of the tire.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've heard so much about how a 16" diameter tire will yeiled a higher top speed than a 15".</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's not necessarily true. The diameter 15" or 16" refers to the diameter of the WHEEL, not the tire. A 15" tire can have a larger or smaller outer diameter than a 16" tire, depending on the size of the tire. For example, a 195/55-15 tire has a larger outer diameter than a 205/40-16 tire, because the 195/55-15 has taller sidewalls.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So if i honestly go with a 185mm or 195mm wide tire, i would technically have better acceleration than a 215 or 225mm wide tire?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's quite possible. But it depends on the entire tire size. Also on how sticky the tire is.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looks like i just figured out why when drag racing, to have the tires such such a low pressure such as 10 psi. Something i dont think i will ever understand is this guy that had like a xx/40/15 tire on a turbo del sol, which supposably ran 10's. He wanted his tires set to 60 psi???</TD></TR></TABLE>

For the dragstrip, people usually use LOW pressures, for the greater contact patch.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why does tirerack not have falkens?</TD></TR></TABLE>

They don't sell all brands. But you can get Falkens from Vulcan.

Bjorn20

so a smaller aspect ratio (more rim, less tire) will have the potentional to accelerate faster because less sidewall? The sidewall is the side of the tire thats between the rim and the tread right? After thinking about that... the Aspect ratio goes with the diameter then. How do you change the height to width ratio significantly without changing the diameter of the rim? Tires are a lot more complicating than i thought

According to this one site.... it meantioned about this high horsepower turbocharged civic that had all those goodies except bad choice in tires. I swear it said that the current owner had like 195/45/16 (i think anyway...) and the writer of that article was saying how if he went with a 205/50/16 it gives him 4% more are of the tire, so more traction according to him.

I did read the autospeed aricle, very informative. Some of the stuff confused me with all the formulas, and the bending/unbending of the sidewall in the narrow tires section. So would the only reason to get wider tires for the cooling purposes and that larger vehicles simply need larger tires?

Just read up on playing with the tire pressure. From whats been said.. on your average street tire (example falken) you want it to be higher (20-30) to seat all the beads on the surface as possible. Whereas DR's and slicks you want the exact opposite.

and yea i looked at vulcan. Prices arent bad, just all the extra bs kills you (valve stems, mounting/balancing, shipping, warranties)

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so a smaller aspect ratio (more rim, less tire) will have the potentional to accelerate faster because less sidewall? The sidewall is the side of the tire thats between the rim and the tread right? After thinking about that... the Aspect ratio goes with the diameter then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, exactly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you change the height to width ratio significantly without changing the diameter of the rim?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Basically, you need to choose a size based on both the treadwidth and the aspect ratio, together.

As a general rule, especially for street use, it's best to choose a size whose outer diameter is the same as the stock tires.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So would the only reason to get wider tires for the cooling purposes and that larger vehicles simply need larger tires?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, they can provide slightly better cornering. That's more important when choosing tires for track or autocross, since those are likely to already be the stickiest tires possible. But the difference is basically insignificant for street purposes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just read up on playing with the tire pressure. From whats been said.. on your average street tire (example falken) you want it to be higher (20-30) to seat all the beads on the surface as possible. Whereas DR's and slicks you want the exact opposite.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Basically, yes. For street use, it's generally best to start with the pressures recommended for your car, and then adjust as needed from there.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and yea i looked at vulcan. Prices arent bad, just all the extra bs kills you (valve stems, mounting/balancing, shipping, warranties)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just keep the bottom line in mind. Valve stems and mounting/balancing you have to pay for if you have the tires shipped to you, but may be included at a local dealer. Most places that ship tires charge for shipping, but not all (Discount Tire has free shipping). Local dealers charge sales tax, but places that ship usually don't. Warranties against defects are provided by the tire manufacturer at no charge; you have to pay extra if you want a warranty against road hazards (terms vary). Figure out the total including all these charges when comparing prices.

Bjorn20

When you say outer diameter, are you referring to the sidewall/aspect ratio? If so, how do you pick a outer diameter size close to your stock size if they are 165/70/13 ? Heres what i got with the miata calculator:

stock size: 165/70/13

185/50/15 is .8% too slow
195/45/15 is .8% too fast
195/40/16 was almost perfect .2% too slow
205/45/15 .8% too slow

when playing with that calculator, do you not want any of that white line showing on the outside? it seems the closer i get for accurate speedometer readings, that white line isnt there and vice versa.

Tires plus, discount tires and vulcan did not have any of those sizes for falken on their sites. Looks like it might be a special order.

When they (autospeed) talks about weight as being a factor of contact patch, they first say weight of the wheel, then go on to say "if weight of tire is 900 lbs" so i think its combination of both weight of wheel and tire. Do you just want the lightest possible wheel? I suck at math and physics

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you say outer diameter, are you referring to the sidewall/aspect ratio?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm referring to the outer diameter, which is the wheel diameter plus twice the sidewall height (where the sidewall height is the aspect ratio times the treadwidth). The outer diameter is calculated by all of those tire size calculators.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If so, how do you pick a outer diameter size close to your stock size if they are 165/70/13 ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I usually do it by knowing which tire sizes are commonly available. No, there's no magic formula for that. One way you can do that is to enter your car in the Tire Rack website, and when it shows the stock size, click where it says "Optional Tire Sizes available in 13 14 15 16 17 18 diameters.".

BTW, the Tire Rack says that the stock tire size for a '91 Civic Hatchback is 155/-13. (When they don't state the aspect ratio, that means it's 80, so it's the same thing as 155/80-13.) Using the Tire Rack website, it recommends 175/70-13, 185/60-14, 195/50-15, and 205/40-16. Here's how those diameters compare with the stock 155/80-13: 175/70-13 is 0.5 percent smaller, 185/60-14 is 0.1 percent smaller, 195/50-15 is 0.4 percent smaller, and 205/40-16 is 1.3 percent smaller.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">185/50/15 is .8% too slow
195/45/15 is .8% too fast
195/40/16 was almost perfect .2% too slow
205/45/15 .8% too slow</TD></TR></TABLE>

Most of those sizes aren't commonly available.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When they (autospeed) talks about weight as being a factor of contact patch, they first say weight of the wheel, then go on to say "if weight of tire is 900 lbs" so i think its combination of both weight of wheel and tire.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If it's 900 pounds, I think it's a combination of the weight of the wheel and tire, and the weight of the car on that wheel and tire. Which is probably what you meant to say.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you just want the lightest possible wheel?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lighter is generally better, but there are a lot of other factors in choosing wheels, such as cost, fit (proper bolt pattern, diameter, width, offset, center bore), appearance, etc.

If I had your car, I would probably want to get some 15" wheels (for more tire availability). You can get used sets of Integra alloys (fat fives, etc) for around $200 or so, sometimes even with tires on them for around that price. You can get really beat up ones for less, or you can get used steelies for less.

Bjorn20

I think 195/50/15 is going to be the winner, problem is finding a tire that meets that. On vulcan, the smallest they start out with for falkens is 205/50/15 same with discount tires. I dont see anything wrong it, other than my speedometer is going to be off by less than 1 mph.

For wheels, Drag's caught my eye. They are supposably "ultra light", the dr-23 looks good to me (ur average rota slipstream) and price isnt horribly expensive. wheel sizes confuse the hell out of me. Ive read up on them and i still dont get it lmao. The offset and the whole "6x9" dimensions

As far as the drag radials go, for when the time comes to go to the dragstrip, ill just get a pair for the front with some cheapy wheels. Is there any BIG differences between the Bfgoodrich G-Force t/a drag radials and the mickey thompson et street ? whats the t/a stand for?




Modified by Bjorn20 at 6:48 PM 3/19/2007

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think 195/50/15 is going to be the winner, problem is finding a tire that meets that. On vulcan, the smallest they start out with for falkens is 205/50/15 same with discount tires. I dont see anything wrong it, other than my speedometer is going to be off by less than 1 mph.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, it is going to make your car accelerate slower. And the Azenis, in particular, is larger than most other 205/50-15 tires, so it's going to be even worse when it comes to speedometer/odometer error.

If you're looking for great performance, then get the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, which is available in 195/50-15 (but not 205/50-15, FWIW). Outstanding dry traction, outstanding wet traction, and last a long time, 2-3 times as many miles (or km ) as the Azenis.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wheel sizes confuse the hell out of me. Ive read up on them and i still dont get it lmao. The offset and the whole "6x9" dimensions</TD></TR></TABLE>

Offset depends on the car. Wheel width is easy - just get the width in the middle of the approved rim width range for the tire size you're planning on getting. 15x6 is perfect for most 195/50-15. (If you get the Azenis in 205/50-15, that particular tire is larger than most 205/50-15 tires, so you might want to get 15x6.5 for that tire.)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is there any BIG differences between the Bfgoodrich G-Force t/a drag radials and the mickey thompson et street ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'll have to ask the drag racers their opinion.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">whats the t/a stand for?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's been part of the model designation for many BFG tires for many years. Traction Advantage, IIRC...

Bjorn20

based off the reviews of that goodyear tire, its wet traction is just as good as its dry traction along with long treadwear. Pretty much what you just said in the last post hahaha. Out of the 5 pages worth of reviews (a good 100+) never saw anything less than an excellent review. Good pick.

Found some on tirerack, unless i can find a better deal in sponsers or something. I really dont want to get into rim dimensions lol, they confuse me just thinking about it for some reason. So ill just give the details on whoever im buying from and hopefully they can match up the sizes and on I go.

You seem to know your tires, where did you learn all this?

thanks for the help, just found my next tire


Modified by Bjorn20 at 9:19 PM 3/19/2007

Bjorn20

so nsxtasy, would you recommend that same tire on the street for a turbocharged application for say anywhere from 250-350 hp?

I was "told" by other sources to run a 225/50/15 with forced induction. Would i still be able to use the same rim from the 195-50/15 setup or would i need one with a slightly larger offset (think thats what it is), the width of the rim measuring it from side to side?

krisjk2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would i need one with a slightly larger offset (think thats what it is), the width of the rim measuring it from side to side?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A higher offset rim wouldn't change the width of the wheel. here this explains offset.. http://www.tirerack.com/wheels...d=101 What you're thinking about is just the width of the wheel, like the 6.5 part in 15x6.5. I don't know if you would need a bigger wheel so I'll leave that to nsxtasy to answer

Justin Jones

So according to the autospeed article, by using a wider tire (with all other factors equal) you are allowed a softer compound (due to increased cooling cycle time) without sacrificing treadware.

So then in theory I could maybe use sticky 225/45/15 toyo RA1s and due to the increased heat rejection of the wider tread, they would wear similar to falken azenis in the 205/40/16 size?

I'm guessing that the increased width doesn't do enough to reduce wear since I don't see many other people running RA1s on the street.

Justin Jones

and then stuff like this comes along and confuses the hell out of me:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1987029



if wider tires do not increase traction then why 275s? and also, why are they wearing so quickly if the opposite should be happening?


Modified by Justin Jones at 11:58 AM 5/22/2007

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so nsxtasy, would you recommend that same tire on the street for a turbocharged application for say anywhere from 250-350 hp?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bjorn20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was "told" by other sources to run a 225/50/15 with forced induction.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like those "sources" don't know what they're talking about. With a high-horsepower application, you should be concentrating on better tires. The treadwidth is secondary.

And yes, I would still recommend the Goodyear F1 GS-D3 in 195/50-15 for your car, even with all the horsepower, assuming it's for street use. If it's for the track, get whatever size you want.

And I would NOT recommend an R compound track tire like the RA-1 for general street use, for all kinds of reasons - rapid treadwear, need for warmup to be effective, poor feedback at the limit, poor rain traction, etc. Track use, different story (and I use them myself on the track).