Not Another AWD Civic Project!!! - Honda-Tech


Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

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Old 01-26-2016, 09:55 AM   #1
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Default Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

Yes, you've seen them before and here is another one... Like most FWD enthusiasts, I have become addicted to adding more and more horsepower to my little 4banger, while continuing to suffer from traction loss. I've tried a few things to tackle traction issues such as traction bars, stickier tires, and Hondata traction control that only resulted in more frustration. I take my little Civic to the track once in a while, but mostly enjoy driving it around town. I have owned it for 16 years and it is no longer my daily driver. That being said, I decided to take the plunge after much research to convert it to AWD.

The victim is a '97 USDM Honda Civic DX hatch originally purchased in Cali. I've done a few motor swaps in this car over the years and am currently running a B20B Vtec that I have been very happy with. This made the AWD set-up choice easy for me, a 1st Gen Honda CRV. The tough part was finding a manual AWD donor where I live, but difficulty is part of the fun.

SOME GOALS:
1. Stay with factory parts as much as possible
2. Retain rear rotors & calipers
3. Stay with 4 lugs (for now)
4. Incorporate a factory fuel tank
5. Keep rear seats & interior
6. Use of a manual trans with LSD
7. Keep exhaust system 3" & tail pipe exiting on left side
8. Try to keep all parts used serviceable

I will be diving into this project at the same time that I am in the grips of nursing school. My thinking is that with as challenging as nursing school will be, a little project on the side will help to relieve some of the stress by indulging in a hobby. I will do my best to update this thread as much as possible with plenty of pics to back it up. I've done my research and have read all the threads. I know haters gonna hate and that's alright by me. That being said, constructive criticism goes a long way not just for me, but also for those inspired by ingenuity. So follow along and cheer me on. I'm going to need all the help I can get to see this thing through...

The Victim:




'97 Honda Civic DX




The Donor:





'00 Honda CR-V RT4WD Auto


Some Parts:





Rear diff, trailing arms, both axles (only using one of these), and drive line.





That's all for now, until the next update...
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

Looking forward to the build!
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:06 PM   #3
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Will be interesting the idea of make the Tranny spin as fast as the engine does.... I'm kinda new around here but this sound like a really good project... regards
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

Hey man, it's been a while! Glad to see you are finally getting around to this. Hope that LSD works out for you. Good Luck, I'll be watching this.
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

Can't wait to see how it turns out!
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:25 AM   #6
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Hey man, it's been a while! Glad to see you are finally getting around to this. Hope that LSD works out for you. Good Luck, I'll be watching this.
It has been a while, and yes, so far so good. More to come on that. Thank you again!
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Old 01-27-2016, 03:36 PM   #7
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Well first order of business is to take shiz apart. Gotta see what we are working with here...





CR-V rear trailing arm, drum brakes

Here you can see the backside of the CR-V rear trailing arm and the carrier for the wheel bearing. The carrier bolts to the trailing arm and the wheel bearing bolts to the carrier sandwiching the trailing arm. Going to be needing these parts...





Rear CR-V trailing arm with wheel bearing carrier





Front side of trailing arm where wheel bearing sits. Looks like there is a bicycle in there...

Here you can see the differences between the Civic and CR-V trailing arms. The CR-V trailing arms are significantly larger than the Civics. I've seen other builds that have used the complete CR-V trailing arms. I personally did not like those set-ups and will be grafting the CR-V wheel bearing area onto the Civic trailing arms.





I'm sure you can guess which is which.





With wheel bearing assemblies on...





Naked!





Backsides





Another shot





I have no legs, I have no legs!

So this should be easy enough. Manual transmission is on it's way from Texas of all places. More to come...
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:41 AM   #8
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For now the plan is to use the CR-V hubs and rear axles. I do want to see how much they can take and where the weak link is. Other projects that I have studied have had success running the CR-V set-up, but ever build is different as you may know. Looking at how small the rear axle shafts are, it's amazing that they don't break under normal load with a stock B20 driving them. I'm sure the RT4WD system has something to do with the longevity and durability of the rear axles as they never truly see full torque output. I will be deleting some of that system, so that will change things significantly.






5 lug rear CR-V hub.





Back side of hub. Studs removed.

Because of costs and I am never going back to rear drums again, one of my goals is to keep this a four lug set-up and retain rear disk brakes. If I went with five lugs I would have to buy a new set of wheels, new brakes, convert the fronts, and who knows what else, so it just makes sense to stay at four lugs for now. In order to do this, the lugs have to be pressed out and all of the holes have to be welded up, the hub machined, and drilled with a 4x100 lug pattern.





No more holes.


Here you can see that the hubs will not fit into the brake rotor hat. the outside will have to be taken down as well as the center in order to properly fit. From the looks of it, there should be plenty of material to do so without compromising integrity or safety. I should have mentioned that as one of my goals in the beginning, SAFETY!!!





Hub is too big to fit into the backside of the rotor hat.





Center section is also too big for the hat.





Front side of hat.

So it is off to the machine shop along with the rotor hats. I do have some ideas on how to use beefier hubs and axles, but for now I am going this route to see how it holds up. Still waiting on the manual transmission and a couple of other toys. Stay tuned...
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:49 PM   #9
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Another piece of the puzzle arrived today. :thumb up: A full sized 16 wheeler came through my neighborhood and dropped it off. An AWD manual trans out of a '00 JDM Honda CR-V. Already you can notice the differences. Because of the use and location for a transfer case, the shift linkage that the B16 uses will no longer work. This means converting to a cable shifting setup. This is where is would have been such a big help to find a manual trans AWD CR-V donor locally. Purchasing the shifter box and cables brand new through Honda is quite expensive. Currently in search for one from a CR-V or something else that may also work. Another difference with this trans is the use and location of the cable shifting mechanism, which moves the starter to the front of the transmission housing. This will require me to have to extend the wires that go to the starter. Other than that it looks pretty much the same. Honda definitely kept things simple.





Cables and shift mechanism.





Transfer case. Gears are driven off a ring gear on the open diff. Hopefully this little guy can handle some power.





Transfer case where shift linkage entered and mounted on a B16 manual trans. You can also see where the intermediate shaft goes.





Starter towards the front of the housing.


One thing I have always loved about Honda engines, especially the B series, is how clean they look. It's easy to clean up wires, delete or hide vacuum and coolant hoses, and remove unnecessary brackets. The B series really is a good looking engine in a world of auto manufacturers that produce unsightly engine bays. I take a bit of pride in keeping a clean engine bay that looks pretty. That being said, it kind of bothers me that I have to now deal with cables, shift mechanisms, and hideous looking starter. I know, weird right? I'll get over it and figure out something to do with it all. Maybe I'll delete the start all together and just push start the car whenever I go somewhere...
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Old 02-03-2016, 03:50 PM   #10
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Are my pictures that I post WAY too big, or are they ok? Can anyone tell me how to make them smaller? Still a little new with postings.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

IMO, the pictures are just fine. IIRC they get resized automatically now anyways to fit your browser resolution. Either way, keep them coming!
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:44 PM   #12
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So that's how the CRV does it. Cable shifted b-series trans...

I think...I think...I think...I'm getting bad ideas and am following this build closely.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:31 AM   #13
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IMO, the pictures are just fine. IIRC they get resized automatically now anyways to fit your browser resolution. Either way, keep them coming!
Thank you sir. They look huge on my computer, so I just wanted to make sure they looked ok for everyone else. I have a ton of pics from this project, so there will be no shortage in that area.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:32 AM   #14
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So that's how the CRV does it. Cable shifted b-series trans...

I think...I think...I think...I'm getting bad ideas and am following this build closely.
And this is how it started for me. Enjoy the ride...
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:05 AM   #15
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One thing I am a little sad about is giving up my LS transmission. I love the gearing in the LS and it has been great with the turbo setup. I absolutely hated driving on the highways with my B16 trans in 5th gear and sitting at 4500 RPM. Sure it was great for getting into VTEC, but that's really not an issue with a turbo. So it will be interesting how the gearing will play out with the CR-V trans. This trans was built for a non-VTEC motor and a vehicle with taller tires. What's interesting to me are the differences in the gear ratios.

Civc (B16A) LS (B18B) CR-V (B20Z) Prelude ('97-01 H22A)

1: 3.230 1: 3.230 1: 3.500 1: 3.285
2: 2.105 2: 1.900 2: 1.956 2: 1.950
3: 1.458 3: 1.269 3: 1.344 3: 1.344
4: 1.107 4: 0.966 4: 1.071 4: 1.034
5: 0.848 5: 0.174 5: 0.812 5: 0.812
R: 3.000 R: 3.000 R: 3.461 R: 3.000
FD: 4.400 FD: 4.266 FD: 4.562 FD: 4.266

So why you ask did I add the gear ratios for the Prelude. Talked to the guys over at Synchrotech today and learned something new. Thought the CR-V is labeled a "B Series" transmission, it contains all H Series internals. How awesome is this? All the strength and beefiness of a Prelude/Accord packed into the Civic/Integra casing! So when looking for parts or upgrades in the future, I can pull from the more readily available H22 transmissions. Good to know.

BTW, Synchrotech helped me out when I got the infamous and dreaded 3rd gear grind in my LS trans. I ended up replacing the 3/4 shift sleeve and upgrading to carbon syncros. Syncrotech was very helpful and their customer service is outstanding. I beat on that transmission and that thing is solid. Knowing that I have purchased a used CR-V trans with unknown history, I will not hesitate to go through it and do a rebuild on it. Synchrotech was my first stop. I sent an email explaining a little about my project and some of the ideas I have. Before they even let me place an order, James over at Synchrotech asked me to call him to make sure we were on the same page as far as what I wanted to accomplish. Good guys over there.

So needless to say, I placed another order with Syncrotech and have some toys on the way to strengthen and insure reliability of the CR-V transmission. More to come...





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Old 02-04-2016, 09:13 AM   #16
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Sorry, the gear ratio section didn't post the way I had thought it would. A little confusing all squished together like that. Also the gear ratios are curtesy of Helms, H-T member gringo7718 at http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c...guide-2931549/, and H-T member Kronn 98SH at http://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude-...-list-2548441/. Hope this helps.

Integra LS (B18B1, S80/Y80)

1st: 3.230
2nd: 1.90
3rd: 1.269
4th: 0.966
5th: 0.714
Reverse: 3.000
Final Drive: 4.266:1


Civic (B16A, S4C)

1st: 3.230
2nd: 2.105
3rd: 1.458
4th: 1.107
5th: 0.848
Reverse: 3.000
Final Drive: 4.400


CR-V (B20Z, 99-01)

1: 3.500
2: 1.956
3: 1.344
4: 1.071
5: 0.812
FD: 4.562
R: 3.000 (97-98 models), 3.461 (99-01 models)


H Series 97-01 Prelude (H22A, USDM/JDM)

1: 3.285
2: 1.950
3: 1.344
4: 1.034
5: 0.812
R: 3.000
FD: 4.266
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Old 02-04-2016, 09:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

No, I am pretty positive the shaft sizes are different between H22 and the SBXM. I looked into doing the T2W4 internals into the SBXM before... IIRC you need to machine bearings to fit.

However, I can tell you this much, the master rebuild kit I purchased off of Synchrotech a few years ago came with the wrong bearings and I had to order OEM ones... just FYI. I am not 100% for sure if they sorted that out or not yet...

You can put a B-series LS 5th gear into the SBXM transmission as well. It's what I currently have installed in mine. Synchrotech uses the Accord 5th with machining required. The B-series requires minimal welding and grinding and that's it.

First gear and the 1 - 2 shift are the real problems with the SBXM transmission. Synchrotech isn't too involved with modifications on the SBXM, the owner told me that himself during a phone conversation You can call/text me if something isn't adding up if you want to.

PS - Here is a link for reference... I have tons of links.

http://honda-tech.com/transmission-d...ility-3264322/
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:07 AM   #18
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No, I am pretty positive the shaft sizes are different between H22 and the SBXM. I looked into doing the T2W4 internals into the SBXM before... IIRC you need to machine bearings to fit.

However, I can tell you this much, the master rebuild kit I purchased off of Synchrotech a few years ago came with the wrong bearings and I had to order OEM ones... just FYI. I am not 100% for sure if they sorted that out or not yet...

You can put a B-series LS 5th gear into the SBXM transmission as well. It's what I currently have installed in mine. Synchrotech uses the Accord 5th with machining required. The B-series requires minimal welding and grinding and that's it.

First gear and the 1 - 2 shift are the real problems with the SBXM transmission. Synchrotech isn't too involved with modifications on the SBXM, the owner told me that himself during a phone conversation You can call/text me if something isn't adding up if you want to.

PS - Here is a link for reference... I have tons of links.

http://honda-tech.com/transmission-d...ility-3264322/
Geez, so I guess Honda did decide to make things a little complicated. I just keep learning new things about this transmission, and you sir are full of all sorts of good info in this area. The R&D you have put into your CR-V has helped me out tremendously. At this point I am just doing a basic rebuild along with carbon syncros and you know what else. All the bearings they gave me were proper including the ones for the diff. They must have changed things up after your case. I wish I had known earlier that the LS 5th fits right in the SBXM. That's great news!! I do wanna see how 5th is on the highway in stock trim first, but will definitely be on the list of upgrades if I take the trans apart again. Thank you again for your help. I would be very interested in hearing what all you have been able to do with the SBXM some time. Maybe when I break something I can pick your brain.
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:37 AM   #19
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I am trying to start gathering parts to convert to AWD, however my next tune on this FWD is shooting at 800+ HP. I currently run a Gforce dog box, I am wondering if I can use the same gearset in the CRV transmission housing.
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Old 02-09-2016, 02:19 PM   #20
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Tore into the transmission over the weekend and things are looking pretty good on the inside. This is good news as I had no history available on it. Not that you see a whole lot of CR-Vs being hot rodded, but you never know. The gears, hubs, synchros, shift sleeves, and forks all looked to be in good to great condition. The little bit of fluid that was left over was free of metal and the magnet was clean. Can't ask for better than this.

















A basic rebuild is all I will be needing at the moment. Ordered up all new bearings and seals. I will be installing 1st-5th carbon syncros for added strength and reliability. One of my goals with this build is to be able to run an LSD in this transmission. Having an LSD in my current set-up has been one of the best upgrades I have done and I really can't see ever going back to an open diff and being happy. The purpose of this project is to increase traction in a light weight, high horsepower/torque vehicle. Having to deal with torque steer will defeat that purpose. :thumb down: Luckily for me, there have been some H-T members that have put in the R&D and successfully installed an LSD into the SBXM. I have contacted one of these members (who will remain anonymous, but he knows who he is) and this gentleman is going above and beyond to help me with this project. I mean, a total stranger who doesn't know me and I have never done anything for has offered his services to me without batting an eye. That's pretty special and it shows you that yes there is good people on H-T who truly want to help and see people succeed with their projects. So thanks to this man, I have spent more money than I should have and ordered up an MFactory H22A LSD. Parts should be in soon...
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Old 02-10-2016, 04:25 PM   #21
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Got some cool stuff today! Not sure if Christmas came late, or early. Either way, happy, happy. Unfortunately this is all stuff that once installed, I will never be able to see again. On the other hand, these parts will make a world of difference when it comes to the drivability of this project.





Rebuild! You know, the necessary accoutrements...





MFactory H22A Helical Limited Slip Differential





So purddy!





I can see right through you.

A bit unnerving to send out a brand new expensive piece of equipment to get chopped up, but I believe it to be going into good and capable hands. I should be getting the hubs back soon from the machine shop. Once I have those in hand, I can start on the Frankenstein rear trailing arms. Stay tuned...
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:31 PM   #22
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Got the CR-V hubs back from the machine shop. They came out pretty good and fit the hubs nicely. Just need to drill and tap a couple of holes for the rotor screws. Here are some before and after shots.





Before: 4 lug





After: 5 lug





Welded up





Machined and drilled to 4x100








Outer ridge shaved down to fit the hat








Center taken down to fit the hat








Studs back in




Now we can get started on the rear trailing arms. The plan is to build a jig for the Civic trailing arm, cut out face of the CR-V rear trailing arms that the wheel bearing/hub assembly bolts to, bolt the assembly to the jig, and attach it to the Civic rear trailing arm. Sounds simple, right?
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!

Following. I dream of the day to do this to my acura.

And nice set on on the old 5 lug hub.
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Old 02-15-2016, 03:05 AM   #24
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awesome work champ
keep it up
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:50 PM   #25
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Following. I dream of the day to do this to my acura.

And nice set on on the old 5 lug hub.
:thumb up: If you build it, they will come...


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awesome work champ
keep it up
You guys keep reading, and I will keep going!
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