alexisthemovie

i drive my 2000 integra gsr a lot on fun twisty roads and often i will have friends along in cars behind me.

every time, they will comment on how my car turns. basically my car will take turns at a drifting angle except the rear doesnt let loose at all. my car does understeer at the limit but its a totally acceptable amount of understeer. handling is very neutral when im not at the limit.

this tail happy action is very strange because integras are supposed to understeer a lot. i know that my old 1994 integra ls did.

the weird thing is that i am currently running no sway bar in the rear. it simply didnt have one when i bought the car. it does have a skunk2 rear strut bar though which leads me to believe that these strut tower bars actually do have a function.

the coilover/shock combo is ots ground control with tokico illumina shocks on the stiffest setting.

it feels weird driving without a rear sway bar, especially since my front one is still intact. the front is very stable and level but the rear will roll a lot and i can definitely feel it from the driver seat.

i would like to know your theories on why the car behaves like this.

also, tomorrow i am installing a 22mm itr rear sway bar with beaks reinforcement kit, beaks rear tie bar, blox racing endlinks, and blox rear lower control arms. any thoughts on how this may affect handling?

here are some pictures to illustrate how the car rolls. basically only one side of the rear will **** up in a corner while the other 3 wheels are level.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

could be a number of things, from tires, to running too high damping rate in the rear, to lift-throttle oversteer, or a combination of these things.

A video taken from the side of the road (like those pics) would be helpful for us to see what's going on.

BubblegumTate

My guess is the stiff shocks in the rear. Although, on an autocross course or race course, a little oversteer in the suspension isn't a bad thing. You can always throttle in to plant the rear end.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I'm guessing your experiencing "lift-off throttle" over-steer. I've experienced this in my 94 Civic CX back when it had no sway-bars & stock suspension (only mod was 205/40/16 tires). Pretty much any FWD will do this to some extent, and occurs because nearly all the weight of the vehicle is over the front tires, and the vehicle is inclined to rotate around it's center of mass. It's quite controllable with mild throttle inputs, and if you don't feel out of control it's perfectly fine. I can't say exactly how a 22mm rear bar will change things for your, I can only guess it will enhance this effect. But you can always sell it if you don't like it anyways...

alexisthemovie

lift throttle oversteer is probably it because the car seems to rotate a little better, but still ends up pushing anyways.

i hope that the swar bar will enhance this effect because my left foot is too uncoordinated for me to try out left foot braking.

thanks for the replies.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alexisthemovie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i hope that the swar bar will enhance this effect because my left foot is too uncoordinated for me to try out left foot braking.

thanks for the replies.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Heel-toe is your friend (well, mine anyways)...

alexisthemovie

i can heel toe in my parents mazda3 but the pedals in the integra are a bit too far apart to do it comfortably.

i suppose with a bit of practice i could

spoon_ek9

is that me or the front of your car is too low?

alexisthemovie

lol actually the whole car is pretty low but it shows more on that turn because all of the weight is on that outer front corner.

i am tucking the blades, but when my new wheels and rear suspension stuff gets put on tomorrow im going to jack it up a little and get an alignment.

spoon_ek9

of course it shows more on turn due to the weight transfer, but do u know when u low the car too much, the roll center is just below the ground and the suspension is not as effective? if you are tucking the blades, it is prolly too low and what suspension are you using? are u sure u still have travel on your shock?

alexisthemovie

its on ots ground control with tokico illumina on the stiffest setting.

the car is actually being raised today after i get the new wheels and tires on. i was waiting for this so that i could do it all with just one alignment.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoon_ek9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">of course it shows more on turn due to the weight transfer, but do u know when u low the car too much, the roll center is just below the ground and the suspension is not as effective? if you are tucking the blades, it is prolly too low and what suspension are you using? are u sure u still have travel on your shock?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The migrating roll-center isn't that big of a deal as long as you have enough spring rate & sway-bar to controll it. The spring rates of GCs alone are several times higher than stock springs, so roll stiffness will be increased no matter the ride height. This is part of the calculation process that Ground Control goes through to choose spring rates for a specific vehicle (not to mention the actual road testing).

MyEG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alexisthemovie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
this tail happy action is very strange because integras are supposed to understeer a lot. i know that my old 1994 integra ls did. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Check your tire pressure. A little oversteer could be caused by too much psi in the front as compared to the rear. And of course, like the other posters said, it could be driver induced. Are all four tires made by the same manufacture?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MyEG6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

A little oversteer could be caused by too much psi in the front as compared to the rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You got it backwards. Over-steer would be from too much psi in the rear (not the front). Increasing tire pressure reduces the size of the contact patch, thus reducing traction...

MyEG6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You got it backwards. Over-steer would be from too much psi in the rear (not the front). Increasing tire pressure reduces the size of the contact patch, thus reducing traction...</TD></TR></TABLE>

actually, you got ill logic. if you reduce the tire pressure you weaken the sidewall, and if you lessen the breakaway point, you lose traction at lower speeds than optimal. You're thinking straight-away 1/4 mile traction, yes for drag cars you want to run a lower psi because the tires heat up rather quickly. Where most FWD cars have trouble making traction.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Ahhh I see. Thats good stuff. I researched a little & found that both low & high pressures will reduce traction with only a subtle difference in the feeling during breakaway. Apparently, finding the right psi for the intended operating temp of the tire is a bit of an art in itself...

alexisthemovie

the tires are all the same crappy falken ziex all seasons and inflated to 35 psi.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alexisthemovie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the tires are all the same crappy falken ziex all seasons and inflated to 35 psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is that the recomended pressures shown in the glove box (or the door jamb)?

alexisthemovie

door jamb

MyEG6

I wouldn't run the recommended tire pressure as that is the psi recommended for maximum comfort and safety. Performance tire psi is something that needs to be experiemented.

alexisthemovie

well i got my new wheels and tires on today. pumped them to 39 psi each so we shall see how that performs.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alexisthemovie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i got my new wheels and tires on today. pumped them to 39 psi each so we shall see how that performs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Always run the recommended tire pressure for daily driving purposes, as it is based on the weight of the car. For GS-R's that came with 195/55-15 tires, it is 35 front, 33 rear (cold). Even if you have different sized tires, always run the same pressure, as the contact patch will stay the same given the same tire pressure, regardless of tire size.

Here's my personal experience:

Before my Integra, when I was in high school I had an old 89 Camry that came with 185/70-14 tires, 35 psi all around. I slapped on some 16's with 205/50-16 tires and bumped it up to 40 psi. After just a few months, the center of the tire was worn down to the wear bars, while the outside edges (both inside and outside) still had lots of tread.

Do not run overinflated tires all the time. It's great for autocross (I always start at 40 psi and adjust from there when autocrossing), but for daily driving, it'll wear down the center of your tire for sure.

bamf3000

new tires should definitely help