B18C5-EH2

Okay to make a long story short I NEED rear toe kits in order to get my 1990 Civic wagon's toe within specifications.

In order to avoid assumptions, and the "something's bent!" replies I'll tell you my story.

I've got a 1990 Civic wagon with a pretty low drop, but not slammed. It rides on Eibach/KW Pro Street threaded body coil overs. Here is how it sits:



Camber settings were not too crazy:



I wore a set of tires out in two years time, with more wear coming on the inside edges. I had aligned the car 2 years ago when I got the new tires, and I'm not one to play around with bad alignment settings, so I threw my car on our alignment rack (a few days ago) at work and found:

- Negative (-1.9) front camber both sides - Skunk2 upper camber kits maxed out at full positive adjustment settings

- More negative camber in the rear than I'd usually allow for a DD non tracked car (-2.1 both sides)

- .25 toe out up on the left front

- Other toe readings within specs

- Rear toe adjusters maxed all the way in on right side and within a few mm of being maxed in on left side

:gulp:

So I ended up having to replace both front outer tie rods due to the left having .25 degrees of movement in each direction (combined with the -1.9 camber up front it was chewing the inside a bit) and I didn't chance the right side.

I then decided that -2.1 degrees of camber in the rear wasn't going to work for me. I'm sure I'll get the "camber doesn't wear tires!" crew jumping my stuff for this, but my theory is that camber alone won't wear tires, but it sure exaggerates and toe issues to combine for some uneven tire wear.

So I add some shims (already had longer bolts to anchor upper control arm in rear) to correct the rear camber some more, and of course now I cannot even get the toe within range because so much camber correction has maxed out those cute little toe adjustment slots.

I also saw rotted/tearing rear trailing arm bushings and decided to replace those. I had to go with aftermarket poly ones with a separate mounting ear that slides because I tried OEM bushings and they would not even come close to lining up to put the bolts in that hold them to the chassis.



I know, I know - poly RTAs are crap, they're the devil, etc. etc. I really did not have a choice here because the fixed mount/ear OEM ones simply would not line up with the amount of toe adjustments I'm in need of since I've corrected so much camber. I already went through the hassle of pressing new OEM bushings in, and they just would not line up. The sliding aftermarket style ones work perfectly for this application, and since I work at a shop I can swap them out as frequently as they might break down. I'm not worried about bump steer, etc. etc because this is by no means a track car. If the poly ones turn out to be junk then I'll be scrambling to find another way.

I already installed shorter OEM toe arms to allow for more inward toe adjustment to offset the camber corrections, but even to the naked eye they now look too short so I've decided I'm just going to get some SPC toe kits.

Now I've got the SPC toe kits seen here on my 1992 Civic hatch:



They are a touch expensive for me right now. House note is due, and we've got a vacation to pay for, so I'm also looking at these SPC toe kits:



Has anyone ever used the "standard" series black toe kits? I do not care about bling bling on this DD, and if the kits work similar to the red/gold kits then I'm sold on them due to their $40.00 cheaper price tag.

The black kits kind of look like an easier to adjust design since the red/gold ones inner lock nut are a PITA to loosen/tighten.

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated as I've got to get my car off of the rack at my shop because we just got crazy busy out of nowhere. the sooner I make my choice, the sooner my car is back on the road.

Thanks in advance.

B18C5-EH2

Wow the suspension forum is painful.

Okay I'll toss a few more choices into the fray with hopes that someone has used one of these set-ups.

I'm probably a moron for even posting these, but maybe if I **** a few people off I'll get a response?

Blox rear toe kits - $79.00



...and Megan Racing rear toe kits - $105.00



...and Password JDM toe links - ??? Can't find them on the site any more?!



I know one thing that sets the red/gold SPC kits apart (and the PW JDM if still available), and it's probably worth the extra $$$, and that's spherical bearings vs. conventional bushings. I'm a little gunshy about grabbing up cheapo Blox/Megan parts due to likely crappy *** bushings, but again right now I'm hurting on funds.

I might have to buy those $79.00 kits from Blox as a temporary measure until I can swing those red/gold SPC units.

B18C5-EH2

Hell since I'm talking to myself anyways here's my plan:

Check alignment early tomorrow morning before the shop opens, and if my hunch is correct about now having too much toe in due to too-short arms I very well might just take the original long-*** toe arms and have a small section cut out of them, and have them rewelded at the local welding shop that fabricates roll cages, etc. It's cost me $25.00 before when I had to do a set on a friends car years ago when he bought some bling bling shorter LCAs and upper camber kits - we could not get the toe remotely close to specs, so we had the stockers shortened.

Ghetto?

Yes.

Does it work?

Yes.

Can I get a witness?

Not likely around here...

Maybe if I ask a question about slammed suspensions rather than trying to get good alignment specs?

YES!!!

TunerN00b

So, the lowering mandated camber correction, which then mandated different TA bushings, which then mandated new toe links (did I get that right?)...

I would personally go back to all stock parts (except height adjustment), or at least stock control arms and toe links (and keep the TA bushing already in there), and just ignore the camber. Then again, I daily drove for 3 years with -4* of front camber...

I'm also not a fan of spherical bearings on a daily driver. My Comptech rear ARB came with spherical endlinks, after 1 year they started making noise, and after 2 years they have a slight bit of play in them. Yet after 80k miles, all my stock rubber bushings look new...

The SPC black toe links looks to be a PITA to adjust. Don't you need to remove one end to spin it to change the length? Though, if you only intend to ever set the length once, and then adjust the alignment through the stock slot, that might negate the hassle.

B18C5-EH2

Well firstly the age and crappiness of my original RTA bushings mandated the change, but yes you are correct in that I was pigeon holed (due to ride height, camber corrections, and now shorter toe links needed) into having to run aftermarket two piece poly RTA bushings.



I believe the wagon's suspension starts off at a higher ride height, which means when you lower it as much as I have you get much worse camber than you would with, say, a 92-95 Civic. I know my 92 Civic didn't require anywhere near the amount of shims for the rear UCA to achieve -1.0 rear camber. I have what looks to be an inch worth of shims on each UCA bolt to get my wagon's rear camber at -1.2 or so.

...and I'd adjust the ride height accordingly, but:

1. I like the ride height where it is

2. I can't change the ride height if I wanted to

Eibach doesn't make Wagon specific suspension, therefore my fronts are all the way UP and my rears are all the way DOWN on their ride height adjusters to get the very even ride height seen in my pictures

I'd ignore the rear camber if it wasn't literally -4.5 degrees. I don't subscribe to the "you don't ever need a camber kit" theory because I'm sorry to say that when ever I've aligned a car at the camber/toe specs I desired it has always gotten very even tire wear. I want these tires to last longer than 2 years as they are not summer tires. Ideally I'd like to have:

-1.2 rear camber with .08 toe (dead center of stock toe specs for rear)
-1.9 front camber (because that's the best I can get) with zero/0 toe up front

With those specs and new outer tie rods, new RTA bushings, and provided no other parts such as inner tie rods or other bushings don't crap out on me I should be able to wear the tires perfectly even as I have on my other EFs (non wagons)

BTW:

It should speak to the crazy negative camber the wagons get when lowered to my liking when the Skunk2 front kits are maxed OUT (should be +3 degrees of camber added) and I'm still at -1.9. I have seen a slammed wagon come into my shop for an alignment and it had an honest -4.9 degrees of front camber both sides. Rear camber was in the 4's as well. I made no attempts to shim the rear out any as wheel/tire clearance was at a minimum, and iI knew already that the toe would not come close to spec because of the very issue I'm running into with my own car now.

That's a good point. I'd not elect to go spherical in places other than the toe links, for certain. It looks like I'm choosing between the lesser of two evils:

- Certainly junky bushings on the cheapo Blox/Megan stuff

or

- Sphericals on the SPC red/gold kits or Password JDMs if they are even still available

I think the head of the nut you see in the lower left portion is a pinch nut that you loosen to allow the entire threaded shaft to spin in the blocky looking housing that sits just below the slot in the unibody when installed in the vehicle. I think I've adjusted one of these kits years ago and it was actually a touch more accessible than the red/gold SPC units that I have on my 1992 Civic.

I just wish someone could chime in having owned a set of the black SPC kits to say if the bushings rotted out quickly, or the adjusters are a PITA, or they don't fit right, etc. etc. I hate being a guinea pig when I'm short on time.

B18C5-EH2

Fears confirmed:

Rear toe is at .90 left, and .71 right side - nowhere near being able to adjust in spec due to arms being too short. If I put the stock arms back on they are too long and the toe shoots the opposite way out of spec.

I have decided to park the car until I get back from a trip, and then order a toe kit. I wasn't taking the wagon on my trip anyways. Maybe post-trip I'll just sack up and get the SPC red/gold kits.

99blackcivicSi

wicked tuning's arn't bad either i went out and looked under my car i think those are the ones i have and they are the same price as blox megan blah blah blah also responded in your other thread sorry for the delay though, i'd definatly go back to a oem bushing and the toe kit call it done

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

what did you end up doing?

B18C5-EH2

Haha funny you asked today.

I JUST got it all sorted out yesterday.

I opted to go with the arms I had already used on my 1992 Civic, the Gold/Red anodized SPC links with the heim joint/spherical ends.



I did not install the lock bolt for the sliders in the in most position though, because had I done so I'd have been left turning the arms closer to their longest position with less threads inside of the red sleeve part. I installed them locked in the outer most position on the chassis slider which accomplished two things:

- I could have the arms adjusted more "in" to be shorter, thus having more threads (and more strength) inside of the red sleeve part.

- It allows for much easier locking/adjusting since the inner lock nut isn't inside of the chassis opening near the adjustment slot.

On my 1992 Civic I installed them per instructions (push the slider bolt/trailing arm all the way in) and it makes them a super PITA to adjust and especially lock the inner lock nut.

My alignment readings are absolutely perfect for what I wanted out of the DD wagon:

Rear toe = .08 on both sides
Rear camber = -.9 on both sides (dead center factory spec is -.8)

Front toe = 0 both sides
Front camber = -1.7 (it was -1.9 with a different set of wheels/tire which in theory should not matter)

The one thing that bugs the hell out of me is that my steering wheel is still ever so slightly off centered to the left. I have done literally hundreds of alignments on all sorts of Hondas/Acuras for customers and have literally only had the wheel off center maybe twice ever. EVERY time I align one of my Civic is the wheel is slightly off centered towards the left.

I'm going to try and lift the car on a normal rack and turn each tie rod in very tiny increments in the same direction to attempt to level the wheel. The alignment itself is good as there is no pulling, but the off wheel is pissing me off after all of this work.

GSRCRXsi

Can't you just pull the wheel off and put it back on straight?

B18C5-EH2

- Quick release hub makes it more of a PITA

- Wheel wasn't off centered enough to be even a "tooth" off at the hub

I marked the inner tie rods with a grease pencil, loosed the lock nuts, rotated the tie rods 90 degrees (1/4 turn) and the wheel is perfectly centered now. Since I moved both wheels the exact same amount and in the exact same direction the alignment readings themselves have not changed.

B18C5-EH2

BTW:

I found out why my Civics' steering wheels get off centered when I align them. The steering wheels are of smaller diameter than stock ones, so the spring loaded steering wheel locker we use doesn't enough tension to hold the wheel in place when breaking tie rod lock nuts loose, and re tightening them, etc.

99blackcivicSi

what machine are you using? if your using a hunter machine and using the dreaded wintoe correctly you should not have that problem with a steering wheel lock yes it will be a bit crooked but with wintoe (is whati use with aftermarket wheels) since it has you adjust it twice after your second level out of the wheel it always comes in dead nuts perfect.

Libertariat

I saw an EF wagon Thursday right after I proposed to my girlfriend.

Made me think of you XD

We happened to be in downtown Atlanta and the IA meet was happening.

methos713

what aftermarket rear trailer arm bushings are those? Where did you purchased them?

949

im about to buy one of these rear toe kit. which ones do you guys recommend?