DarryCar

This is my first experience with Hawk brake pads and I am just wondering if anyone has had similar issues/experiences with these pads. I also have done a lot of changes to my braking system all at once, so I am not placing all of the blame of my brake pedal feel on these pads. I had heard good things about Hawk brake pads and thought I would try them out (without doing any research . Now I am reading reviews on them and it sounds like these pads may be my problem.

First off, this is a '97 Civic hatch with a B20. I already had a BBK on it which consisted of 12" front rotors with Civic EX calipers and 11.5" rear rotors with GSR calipers. AEM pads all the way around (which now I'm starting to think I should have stayed with).

Here are the changes that I made:

Nissin 1" mc (brand new)
Cardon brake booster (reman)
'99 Civic Si prop valve (used)
'03 Porsche Boxster rear Brembo calipers (used)
'04 RSX rear calipers (used)
Wilwood front & rear drilled rotors (brand new)

Here is what I did:

Bench bled the mc before instal
Bench bled prop valve before instal
Gravity bled all calipers after install
Bled brakes w/ pneumatic (single person) LR-RR-RF-LF
Bled brakes manually (2 people) LR-RR-RF-LF
Bled brakes again pneumatically this time LR-RF-RR-LF
Adjusted booster push rod to mc (should have never touched)
Swapped in a different booster check valve

The issue:

Initial grip SUCKS!! I am now reading in reviews that this is an issue with Hawk pads. I mean, it's terrible. My initial impression was that the brakes feel stiff with nothing happening when applied. Another issue is I literally have to stand on the brake peddle to come to a quick stop from 40-60mph. It will stop, but it's a little scary! I can barely get the rears to lock up, and forget about the fronts locking up. Now I have only put about 40 miles on this new set up, but from what I am reading, it doesn't get much better over time. This is my project car and not my daily. I did want to get some performance out of my braking system, but nothing crazy, crazy.

So, here are my questions to you:

A. Has anyone had a similar experience with these pads?

B. What pads do you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your time.

98civdx

You have Porsche and RSX rear calipers?

I have Hawk HPS front/rear with SI rotor/calipers. I am very happy with them.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Initial bite on hawks is usually pretty good. You sure you cleaned the rotors adequately? Got all the grease and oil off of there with brake cleaner? Did you bed the pads in? Anything wrong with the booster?

v4lu3s

How much does bite improve after they are hot?

DarryCar

I have Porsche Boxster S rear Brembo calipers on the front, and rear RSX calipers on the rear. I wish you could drive my car and see if you were happy with it.

From what I have been reading, initial bite on Hawk pads are not good. It's a matter of opinion I guess, but my initial bite right now is nonexistent. I did not clean the new coating off of the rotors, but I would think by now it would be out of pads. I was very clean when installing them, so I'm not worried about any dust. I guess I could take the pads out and grind off a bit if I need to. As far as bedding the pads, it's hard to say. The stopping was so terrible that I just wanted to get the car home safely. That's when I changed out the booster without properly diagnosing it. I left out a stupid spacer that came with the shitty Cardon reman booster that goes between the booster and mc. Drove down the street and the brakes locked up on me. I had to back off the mc to get the car to move again. That's when I started messing with the pushrod adjustment. Should have just gone OEM on the booster...

Does not improve at all. Although, I have been taking it on somewhat short drives. A few hard stops, or attempts at hard stops, and initial bite, or lack there of, stays the same.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

You left all the oil on the rotor??? This would clearly be the issue if that's what you're saying.

You should always fully clean rotors and pads with brake cleaner before installing them. Rotors are coated in oil to keep them from rusting in transit.

DarryCar

It wasn't oil on the rotor. These Wilwoods came with an e-coating. It's a coating to protect against corrosion and there is nothing in the installation directions that says you must remove it. The pads do that as soon as they make contact with the rotor. I've worked for BMW now for over 10 years. They use a similar coating on their rotors which comes right off after a few stops. Never had an issue. This should not be the issue here either, but I could always try cleaning the pads off.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

E coating should come off after some use, yes. I would clean the rotor and pad surface with brake cleaner. They may have sprayed oil on the rotor even though it was e-coated.

DarryCar

Ya, I'll give that a go. Thanks for the help, I'll let you know...

KoRn_vIRuZ

The pads are probably not the issue here. Did you do the maths on the changes you've made? You changed the brake system extensively and I worry you might have done more harm than good.

DarryCar

Not aware of any math I was supposed to do. I finally changed my prop valve from a DX to an Si due to going from rear drums to rear disks (something I should have done a long time ago). I wanted Bembo calipers up front and am using ones that my AEM BBK used originally back in the day. Due to the massive increase in piston area, I decided to move to a 1" mc to push all the fluid. Moving from GSR to RSX rear calipers isn't that big of an increase and is pretty straight forward. You'll have to elaborate on what I may have missed...

KoRn_vIRuZ

I can't write it all in a post but there are resources out there if you search. This one is as good a starting point as any (slide 9 in particular): http://www.sae.org/events/bce/daimlerchrysler-gritt.pdf

You need to size the master cylinder, caliper pistons, etc to generate proper braking force. You can't mix and match at random and expected it to work well... Good luck!

B serious

iTrader: (1)

His master cylinder would have to be too BIG to not provide enough resultant force to the calipers. I doubt that's the case.

There is likely something wrong with his booster....or there's oil on the rotor.

DarryCar

There is some great information in there, thanks for that. I really don't feel like I am reinventing the wheel here with my setup. It is a somewhat common setup and one that major brake manufacturers offer in their BBKs. I will keep all of this in mind though as I continue to diagnose.

DarryCar

I removed the pads and they looked a bit glazed over. So took the Drimel out and lightly sanded the surface of them. Feels like it helped a little. I've also read in reviews that the feel of the Hawk pads just take some getting used to. I guess I'll find out if that is true.

In the mean time, no one has suggested or recommended any other brake pads on here yet. What does everyone like out there???

rossyrossb18a

EBC PADS ARE FANTASTIC

DarryCar

Damn!! That's originally what I was going to go with. Not sure why I didn't. Thanks for the suggestion. BTW, what color EBC?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Depends upon the purpose I guess. BP20s on 7618 pads for the willwoods for street. Cobalt Friction for circuit. .. All under RBF 600 non-dot fluid.

DarryCar

TheShodan!!! Thank you for your time and attention, it is greatly appreciated. I will be sure to look into these pads.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Stoptech Street Performance. Hands down. For a street car anyway

spAdam

iTrader: (1)

I have zero experience with the PC compound from Hawk, but they advertise them as a dustless luxury/touring pad... Not an application where I would use a bite-y aggressive compound if I was in the business of making brake pads. Maybe you just need to try something more aggressive?

DarryCar

Thank you for the input.


My thoughts exactly. I should have done my research on these instead of just just going off of hearsay.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Ceramic pads always have less bite than their metallic or organic counterparts.

If comparing within the realm of ceramics, these likely bite better than most. You still shouldn't have to stand on the pedal to slow the car from 60MPH....even with stock calipers and pads. That indicates that there is something wrong beyond the pad compound not being agressive enough.

When you were comparing... I was assuming you were comparing apples to apples since Hawk has a billion different compounds. Their pads are generally more bitey than other pads of the same type.

DarryCar

No, like I said I changed too many things at one time. I still need to play with the pushrod adjustment in the booster. I am considering getting a set of EBC Redstuff to throw in and see if there is a difference in feel. I did take a layer off of the Hawk pads that looked a little glazed over and that seemed to help a little. I wasn't able to do any stops from higher speeds though, just around the neighborhood. My waste gate failed, so it is off the car now. Always something...

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Redstuff is a ceramic pad also.

Is this an application for a street-only car with a turbo? You're looking for pads with better cold bite? Any track use planned (road course)?

Your issue is that even with a FIRM pedal, you need too much force on the pedal to stop the car, correct?