backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Hi all.

Regarding Koni Yellow struts for my 4th gen Prelude, should I purchase a set, how exactly are they sold? I am currently under the impression that as opposed to being a traditional strut with welded metal spring perches, they are sold basically as tubes with circlip rings that insert into one of the positions on the strut. I guess what I really need to know is, that from the circlip, could I mount a progressive rate type spring using a removable spring perch, then say 6 months later move onto a coilover sleeve? and beyond that, since they are only rebound-adjustable, does anyone know what spring rate the non-adjustable compression would be preset at? or a rough number, like 250 or like 450? I'm sure someone's experience could answer these easily. Will the Koni Yellow play nice with a softer, perhaps sport spring until it gets sleeves, if possible?

My reasons are pretty straightforward, I purchased recently: KYB AGX, Neuspeed Sport springs, Energy Suspension Hyper Flex master kit, ES trailing arm kit, both front and rear sway bushing&mount kits as well as a Suspension Techniques rear 25mm bar (the largest made for a Prelude anymore ) Along with this, I have purchased 4 lower ball joints from Honda and 4 National wheel bearings at a cost of $500 alone, so with what I've spent already in mind, I'm only rethinking my position due to the sticky at the top of the suspension forum rating setups. And I realized I don't wanna leave myself wanting or wishing. Or with a non-adjustable, uneven drop. Not for what I'm ultimately spending here, which will end up being around $1400. So maybe upgrading the struts while I can still get my $340 back (minus shipping) is the way to go.

I am confident, that for my uses, the AGX and Sports will be just fine. Mostly DD and the weekly or twice canyon/windy countryside/mountain runs. But I do care about the future, longevity and the potential to auto-x if I want to. I do care about ride quality, but not to the highest extent. If there's more bang for the buck performance-wise, I'm all for it. At the same time, I don't want an overly soft setup or one that won't last. I was content to let the AGX and Sports, a combo I have used- albeit back in 2002- to much pleasure. Would Koni Yellows give me the best flexibility to go with any set spring or coilover sleeve in the future? Are the AGX with Sports just gonna be way too soft, to where I don't feel different from stock? I know this is all relative, but its important to me to do it right the first time. I did alot of research, but I didn't intend initially to want the spectrum of adjustability the Koni will offer.

ps. I've decided to wait until after the entire project is done to address putting on the swaybar. I got a little overzealous and realized I should wait and see how it handles first, as I'd like to add a traction bar too.

Thank you to anybody in advance who can help me out. I'd love to build it all right the first time, and as you can see, I still have questions. Lol. THanks!

edit: I should also mention my wheel setup. I have a 5 lug conversion, AP1 wheels wrapped in RE760 Sports w/ 25.4mm bolt-on Ichiba spacers. So the wheels are completely flushed out and rather than tuck, they'd just hit the fender. It looks great, but also limits my potential to lower to where I feel that a 1 finger gap all the way around to allow for travel is most ideal. So I won't be slammed, or really ever need to be, if that affects anyones opinions. My town roads suck anyways.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I believe the best way to buy Koni yellows is as a set of four packaged together. There was something I read that if they come together, they come as a matched set with consistent valving. If bought seperately, there may be small differences in damping force per adjustment. Although...they're adjustable by degrees, not clicks. So...all that "buy them in matched sets" BS may not be true.

Koni yellows are great if you want something with a lot of versatility, plan to tune ride quality and handling balance with spring rates, and you are willing to give up some ride quality for it.

Also, you will need a ride height that is fairly close to stock, since they are stock length shocks. IIRC, I believe that with streetable spring rates, Koni usually recommends like 35mm max lowering (1.38").

Basically, they are good for a budget track shock that gives you a great jumping point for further upgrades. In it's off the shelf form, it's not all that impressive in terms of anything except versatility and durability.


In my experience with off the shelf Koni yellows, they work well with springs that are tall and soft for street use. They can, however, accomodate higher spring rates at the expense of ride quality. They are as travel-limited as stock (in some cases, more travel limited than stock). I'm not a huge fan of them for mostly street driven cars. BUT, they can be shortened/revalved/converted to double adustable to overcome their limitations. Like I said...great jumping off point.

What units are you using when asking for a measure of their bump damping?

If damper adjustability is not important to you, Bilstein B6's or B8's may be a better buy than Konis. There's apparently more consistency in damping force, and they have a digressive curve, which helps with ride quality while still keeping roll stiffness. Plus they're monotubes...which have a small advantage in longevity and shock response. Bilsteins definitely ride nicer than Konis.

Tokico illuminas are another good adjustable shock. The bump curve is adjusted along with the rebound curve, which in some ways makes them better than Konis...and in some ways will kind of limit you a bit.

Or buy a decent coilover with matched springs and dampers. Under $1k, ones that come to mind are Tein Street Flex.


As far as your question about Koni spring perches:
-Use the offset spring perches for stock springs or lowering springs that mimic the stock spring shape.
-Use circlip without the offset perches to mount coilover sleeves like the ones from ground control.

You can remove them or attach them whenever and however you want to work with what you have. I would use anti-sieze on the clips and seats where they meet the shock.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Hi, sorry for getting back to you so late. So my circumstances have changed somewhat. Longer story short, my fiancée's almost brand new Hyundai Accent became available to me for ultra cheap in exchange for buying her the car she's always wanted. Which works out great for me. We have 2 kids together and we all know how a sport coupe Honda works out for a growing family; it doesn't. So part of the deal for her new car when we just bought this Hyundai brand new 2 years ago is I keep the Prelude as a weekend/project car with no real budget.

I purchased the Neuspeed/AGX setup with streetability and daily driving as a huge factor, and now that means nothing and I can turn it into any kind of car I want. I contacted the sellers of the struts and springs and I'm all good to return them.

I would absolutely love the versatility of the GC/Koni setup since I'm not 100% sure whether I will make a street car or track car out of it..or both. Which is where the adjustment comes in handy. I like the rebound only adjustment- it tells me the struts are twin-tubed vs the AGX which is both compression and rebound adjustable in 4 different settings. Basically, a single-tube strut. That's very interesting info on the Koni, buying them as a packaged set of 4. I was aware they can be valved in multiple ways but figured there was a factory preset for non-custom damping. It is also my understanding that Konis are available with 20mm shorter shafts for lowering? I see your point with the standard length shafts and lowering, though I thought Koni warrantied their struts for life regardless of the drop.

I have to admit, you may be farther ahead of me in strut/spring/coilover knowledge than me. I only approached the Koni-GC setup as, like you said, a great jumping off point. Would potentially going with Koni and the softer Neuspeed springs but a worthwhile idea? The progressive rates of the Neuspeed Sports vs the fixed rates of the GC (of course I can get custom rates but that's beside the point) I thought that I would have to choose so to speak, thinking the Koni was available either with perches as part of the assembly, non-removable, but some research has led me to what you're saying, that the spring perches are removable in lieu of circlips for coilover sleeves if I so choose.

I'm gonna have to do even more research, I can see. I mean.. seeing as the car is no longer something that needs to be depended on daily, that I have to worry about comfort as well, the Koni is a no-brainer right? Adjustability is a huge key for me. I've looked into the Bilstein Sports previously, but didn't find much in the way of reviews that pertained to my goals. Then again, my goals have changed since. I know a dedicated coilover, like Tein, or any of the other brands that offer strut bodies specifically valved and matched to coilover spring rates, can be a better idea. But I see some drawbacks there as well.

I suppose I need to decide on my goals, but any further input would be greatly appreciated. I have the flexibility to do whatever I want and a budget of $1000 total ($500 of that would be in the form of returns of the AGX and Neuspeed).

One final question though- is there any shot the Neuspeed/AGX would be a good setup anyways? And I could possibly put the other $500 to better use? It's not the final $500 I'll ever have to spend, but I want to make sure I spend it most wisely. In case I hadn't mentioned, I have a full Energy Suspension Master kit, trailing arm, sway links and mounts, all wheel bearings and and ball joints that are going in as well. In case that changes any direction you would suggest.

I want to do this right the first time. I've cheaped out before when I was young, and now I either do it right or not at all. I have no qualms with tearing out the struts in a year to do something else, but I'd prefer to do the best job I can right now.

Thanks for your time and thoughts. Much appreciated!

edit: I did have one possibly odd question. Obviously, with standard lowering springs, there is the risk that the wheel gap won't be uniform all the way around due to the nature of the fixed drop spring. By using threaded coilover bodies, one can adjust the height precisely, but if say my right front is like 5 turns from the bottom, and my left front is 4 turns from the bottom, yet both sides have the same fender gap, will that affect handling? As in, one side would have a slightly more compressed spring than the right, wouldn't it? Is that an advantage of a simpler strut/spring? in that you live with a potentially unequal drop but at least the handling and turn-in tendencies are equal left and right? or am I overthinking this?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I believe AGX's are twin tube as well. That is the most common and traditionally, the least expensive way to make a shock. There are advantages and disadvantages of monotube and twin tube shocks.

Koni makes a great product. As long as you understand that the ride quality will be OK (not great, not bad), and that you restrain yourself by keeping the height close to stock.... then a Koni/GC setup is a very good way to go. Especially for versatility.

Koni lifetime warrantys their shocks against DEFECTS. But...I don't believe it covers normal wear or abuse.

*IMO* bilsteins ride better and seem to be made better than Koni's. But..that's reflected in the price.

I'd rather have Illuminas or Koni yellows than AGX's. But the AGX isn't a bad shock.

I don't know much about neuspeed springs because I really don't buy lowering springs anymore since I don't see the value or point.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

One thing I can say for sure is to ditch the poly bushings.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

I'll have time to respond to your other post later tonight but real quick why do u say ditch the poly bushings? I got them because I figured 20 years of rubber bushings has been enough. My car knocks and bumps when I drive it and it's def from the suspension. I know the poly will squeak, but not being a DD I can especially live with that now.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The ride with poly bushings is awful. They also tend to wear at an accelerated rate. Hard rubber or OEM rubber would be a better choice.

Rubber bushings need to be clocked when installed or when the arms are bolted together. If they're installed properly, they will ride and wear better.

Poly makes the car respond a little sharper. But its not worth it IMO.

Check your sway bar end links to find the clunks.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Hi, hope you had a good weekend!

Regarding the poly bushings, I've seemed to hear nothing but good things about them, especially that poly will outlast the car vs rubber bushings that have more of a shelf life. Either way, I've already purchased the Energy kits and those are not refundable and cost about $175 total, so I'm going to go ahead and use them. I'll make an assessment after some driving time. One of the perks of not having to worry about it being a DD, haha.

I've arranged for the AGX and Neuspeed Sports to be returned. I noticed through research that the Koni Yellow is also available with a 20mm shorter rod for lowered applications through ARS I believe it was called, which is the Neuspeed site. I need to call them and confirm, as the part numbers for Neuspeed Koni vs the Koni available anywhere else matches. Which on one hand makes sense, as it would be the same product, just modified. However the price doesn't seem to reflect any custom rod length or valving- they retail at $130 a pop. Throw in the $300ish for the Ground Controls, and its an $825+ setup. I checked around at coilover setups in that range, which will come with struts custom valved to springs and shorter rods- in other words, meant to be lowered. But the only things I find under $1000 are BC, K2, F&F, Tein low end stuff, etc. Which to me at least sounds like all the same stuff with a different sticker. I'd love some Zeals. But I have 2 kids. So $2700 coilovers, while baller, are not something I can explain without sleeping on the couch for a month while not getting any. HA!

Everywhere I go, its "dollar for dollar, you can't beat the Koni/GC setup". So that's what I'm gonna go after. I'd like to ask, given your concerns with ride quality and the poly bushings, should I go with something like 400f/350r vs 400f/550r? I am under the impression I can always contact GC and order just the rear springs- so if I have a track day, I can swap out the rear coil springs with little more than a half days work. Essentially, the softer spring rates should do some good to cancel out the rougher poly ride, while keeping the nice strong damping of the Koni intact.

I only plan to lower about an inch and a half, no more. My wheels are already flushed out, AP1s with 25.4mm spacers. So any further down, and the tire will hit the inner and out fender lips. 1.5" is good for me for everyday fun. If I wanted to dump it, I'd go with F&F Type 1 or some crap. But with the ARS-modded Koni shorter rods and the coils mounted to the lower perch/circlip, that should give the rod the kind of travel as if it was riding stock height. Once again, should I decide to dial it all in for a track day, that could change. Part of why I've decided to go Koni/GC. I can do whatever I want. So am I missing anything here? Another direction, or advice you have to offer regarding the use of coilover springs? I've always been a progressive spring guy. I feel like I know what I'm talking about here (and I've got 5 windows open full of research) but if I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting anything, feel free to correct me. I want to make sure this is done right (and for under $1000 from here on lol)

Thanks!

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

It does seem like there are two schools of suspension people- one crowd crows and raves about any suspension mod no matter what it is, because it probably does feel better than whatever old worn OEM garbage was on there.

Then there is the school of guys who have been there, and done that. The ones who have learned the hard way from poorly made cheap coilovers. Those guys usually recommend very expensive coilovers going forward, but I've yet to really hear even the most seasoned of gurus really knock the Koni/GC.

ps- I replaced the sway bar end link bushings a couple months ago with some other used ones since mine were literally cracked and broken. It thunked over speed bumps, and that went away. I'm gonna go under there this weekend and put in the front and rear sway bar poly bushing and mount kits and see if that makes a difference. The thunking I'm getting right now is when: I start up the car, and as a release the clutch, as soon as the car actually starts moving forward- not when the clutch first grabs, but when the weight of the car shifts- there is a single thunk, I can hear it easily and feel it most in the pedals but throughout the car. My only other thought is rear engine mount, as my shifting has become slightly more notchy, but that could just be wear. The jdm h22 has 130k on it now.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I'm not knocking Koni and GC. They make great products. I'm saying that as long as you are able to accept their limitations, they're great. Everyone seems to provide the blanket statement that koni/gc is the PERFECT DD setup, and that astronomically high rates with dismally low ride heights still have them riding like silk.

Its a misconception. Most very seasoned people will tell you that the limitations do exist. Konis are a $500 shock. They're not going to do everything the internet thinks. My öhlins probably wouldn't be able to do all of that stuff.

Seems like you're living within those limitations, though, so you should be fine.

But...I have no idea who told you poly will outlast the car. 2-3 years max (for your typical energy kit). It is way less durable than rubber. If it were better than rubber, OEM's would use it. "Track ready" factory cars like the ITR, STi, Porches, EVO's, S2000's, etc....all come with rubber, reinforced rubber, or spherical bearing bushings. No poly.

Poly removes some of the deflection. But at a huge cost to ride quality and longevity. I can't speak for all poly kits. There are kits by whiteline or other more engineered brands that tend to last long via design. But...you'll certainly be paying for it. One or two joints from whiteline may cost as much as a whole energy kit.

Also...Tein is absolutely not comparable to F&F, D2, KSPORT, BC, etc. Teins are of far greater quality, are made in Japan, and have quite a bit of real world R&D behind them. Tein will custom revalve and rebuild most of their shocks as well (just like Koni). Teins also have their limitations...but I doubt you'll find someone that says that an out-of-the-box tein kit doesn't ride well. And almost none of them end up with defects after years and years of use. The powder coat finish on Teins is millions of years ahead of the stuff they put on Konis. Teins come with full length dust boots and delrin washers under the springs. Those type of features add up.

For track use, though, I'd probably choose Koni/GC if I was shopping on a budget and NEEDED adjustable shocks. It doesn't appear that Bilstein makes anything for the prelude. Otherwise, Id go with non-adjustable Bilsteins and revalve them if needed.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Oh I didn't think you were knocking Koni/GC. Too many people have praised it for what it is. I never believed Koni/GC is the perfect DD setup, as you can't have both worlds. You either go lowered and accept it for what it will be, or you stay near stock height and enjoy the smoother ride.

I fully understand the limitations of the setup, but for someone who will mostly be taking the car on mountain runs and will see a track day or two a year, and otherwise won't get much use, it's feeling like exactly what will work for me.

I didn't mean to lump Tein as a whole in with the D2, F&F, etc. I just meant it as for $1000, even Tein probably doesn't live up to what Koni/GC can do. Or so I've read from the hours and hours of research I've done. The big complaint with Teins is the springs are too soft and the struts are underdamped, which I'm sure isn't an issue when you start talking about far more expensive Tein setups, but for my money.. I'll look into the Teins further. I mostly hit up stickys from sites, as threads where people say "I love my (insert coilovers)" that doesn't do **** for me. Everyone drives different and has a different level of comfort. What I want is the adjustability factor of damping and ride height. I would have been fine with the AGX if it was a DD- I've had them before and was quite pleased. But I'm hesitant to put GC sleeves on the AGX. People do it, sure, but the Koni for the extra $180 is a no-brainer, especially taking into account longevity. This Prelude isn't going anywhere.

I actually called ARS (Neuspeed) to ask about the 28mm rear sway bar and the 20mm shorted rod Koni they offer, and they don't make either anymore. Supposedly Koni got a little upset that everyone wanted the shortened Yellows, so they stopped supplying them. That's the story I got from Neuspeed, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but oh well. So it'll have to be "stock" Yellows, but from the lower perch and a 1.5" drop, I should be fine. Also it looks like a 25.4mm Tanabe bar is the biggest I'll find for the rear, and its non-adjustable. Unless I hit up McMaster-Carr and make some adjustable endlinks. The only adjustable Prelude bar on the market is made by sickspeed, and that's a brand I don't trust.

The reason adjustability throughout the suspension is important, be it damping, ride height, rear sway bar, etc is I simply don't want to be locked into any particular setup. I'd like to have fun fine-tuning the suspension to suit my style and use on any given day. I understand its a little more complicated than that, but you get my drift.

As for the poly, that's def some really interesting info. I hadn't heard one less than stellar thing about Energy kits yet. I know you get what you pay for, and Honda OEM bushings would by far price out Energy. But when it comes to dealer pricing, all bets are off. Aftermarket can be as good or better. I guess we'll see how it rides. That's the joy of having 2 cars. Now, if only I could figure out this timing belt on the Hyundai. Lol.

Bilstein does make a monotube sport strut for the Prelude as well as a heavy duty. Its priced at $185 give or take per strut for the sport, and they don't look to be very available. That's quite a step up financially but I have no doubt Bilstein is a top of the line product. I've always liked their stuff. I have no clue whether Bilstein can be custom revalved in the way Koni can but its a thought. Nothing is set in stone yet. I get my taxes back pretty soon too Though I feel like if I take it to the next level my fiancée may kill me. $1500 is not a lot of money for an amazing suspension, def the low end, but its still $1500 when you also have 2 kids and a mortgage. There's give and take and at some point, I think I'd have to decide that what you have, you're lucky to have and its plenty good enough.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Lol. The people saying Teins are "under damped" are the same people running 450-500 LB springs on the back of their civics, slammed with OTS Konis, claiming "they're so comfortable". They're lying to themselves.

You can have Konis, Bilsteins, or quite a few models of Teins revalved. Konis and Bilsteins can apparently be revalved by anybody who works on shocks. The parts for Teins may require them to be revalved specifically by Tein. They're all reputable companies.

I have had a bunch of Koni/GC setups and a bunch of Tein setups. Both for 50K+ miles. Unlike most reviews, mine are not fly-by-night or inexperienced altogether.

Tein has had a bad rap in the past. I'm not sure why. You can buy an OTS Tein setup, put some heavy *** springs on it with stock valving...and have the car ride like ****. Which is EXACTLY the same result you'd have with Koni yellows. For some reason, this fact is lost. Konis may be less prone to external leakage from over-springing. But both will wear prematurely with heavy springs.

People claiming that Konis can handle "up to 600 LB springs on a civic/integra without issue" are on crack...or have never done it to find out just how badly it turns out. I'm not sure what types of springs are typical for Preludes, though.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Check out AMR also. I believe you can buy a custom sprung/valved setup with a lifetime warranty for $1200-1300ish.

KoRn_vIRuZ

Having had Koni/GC in the past, if I were buying in that price range today I'd go for Bilstein. They're monotube and have much larger pistons, which allows for more precise control. A great basis for a custom setup. Shops like Fat Cat Motorsports use them with great success to create custom solutions.

You can get sleeves for them from GC or just buy them as a complete coilover set from H&R for under $1000 (for Civics at least). I don't really know why they aren't more popular in the Honda community.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys.

So I return shipped the AGX and Neuspeed Sports back to their respective vendors yesterday, and have decided to go with the Koni/GC combo. I did contact AMR and they do offer discounted prices to H-T members but the price tag was just a little too high. We were looking at around $1500 for their full coilover and considering the AGX/Neuspeed cost me around $575, bumping the overall cost of the spring &damper by $1000 just wasn't going to be feasible. There's other places I could more effectively spend even the $600 difference between the Koni/GC and AMR. Maybe if I was a single guy with no kids and no mortgage...lol. I also looked into Bilstein Sports, and the price wasn't shabby at all. It was def doable within the budget, but the lack of adjustability did push me away. Not that any strut that can't be adjusted is garbage, far from it, but that is the selling point. Control over damping would seem to suit the wide range of applications I will use the car for.

So I called ARS right then and there and while the shortened rod Koni is no longer available through them, they still had the best price I could find at $500 shipped for all 4. I was able to purchase them all together, so any concerns with varied valving between other vendors won't be an issue.

I'm a little stuck on the Ground Control springs though. I'm sure I can find them for a good price, but what I'm not sure of is exactly what spring rates would be a good buy. From what I understand, the front spring rate is important obviously but the rears are the key. A higher rear spring rate than front (combined with a nice 25mm rear sway bar) would induce the rear to swing around quite easily, but come at a tremendous cost to streetability. Instead of a softer rate leveling out the car on the streets over rougher roads, the rear will make the car bounce like a bobblehead. Once again, this is what I've understood from my own admittedly raw research. So I think I'd prefer something like a 375f/300r spring rate?

For now, we can throw out the track idea. I have a track buddy and he gets there a couple times a year at most. Between new tires, time to bleed out brake fluid, pads, possibly rotors, swapping coil springs out, changing ride height, getting it aligned.. my thought here is that I will set up the car for a street setting with the capabilities for the track. In the 2 weeks since she became a fun/weekend car, she's been driven maybe 6 times, couple to the store and the rest were 1-2 hour long runs on highway 1 along the coast. I also frequent Monterey quite often, 4-6 times a year as I went to CSUMB and have friends in the area. Just south of Monterey, as you may know, is the best stretch of driving road in the world- from Carmel to Big Sur. And next time my buddy can get my little Prelude back on the track at Laguna I want it to impress. This part is probably asking too much of anything short of a fully blown race suspension, and buying another set of GC with 450f/550r rates would likely be my best bet.

I think calling GC and of course more research is going to lead me to exactly what spring rates work best with Preludes. Its got a near 50-50 weight distribution and comes in at around 2700lbs. Understeer is present, but not to the extent you'd find in Civics/Teggys.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Preludes don't have close to 50/50 weight dist.

Wheel rates for a prelude are *probably* similar to those on a civic. But they're a bit heavier. So a spring split similar to a civic should provide similar characteristics.

The nice thing about a Koni/GC setup is that you are responsible for some of the R&D and engineering. This can also be bad. But with some research and trial and error, and some more money, you'll get it where you want it.

Try:
-Find the GC off the shelf rates for a prelude.
-Start with those rates. They'll be fine for street driving. Once you finally go to a track, you can tune from there.

Your other option is to try and find more info from "reputable" prelude users as to what you should start with. Then decipher the info for your own application. Good luck. If you choose to do it this way, you will need quite a bit of good luck. Lots of people on the internet are great at giving bad advice.

KiNGDEE206

iTrader: (1)

thing is if u start w/ OTS rates

you gotta buy new springs i think theyre $50 EACH plus shipping?

May as well go a little higher than OTS rates maybe by +50-75/100 from OTS for F/r's

if your city has lots of import presence maybe you can get the ground control coilovers used

i remembered when i bought my Koni sport bnib. i found used set of gc coils for ~100 all 4 w/ perchs (luckily for me it was for koni specific)

but even then u can get the OTS perches (meant for all shocks, wider and wont work on koni sport) but u can buy the gc perches @ gc for $20 each PLUS shipping

in my area, i usee used gc coilovers anywhere from $70-150.
that brought my gc koni setup to be $450 Shocks + $100 coils + $225 gc top hats = $725 w/ lifetime warranty


you are correct, and i did buy my koni sport brand new in box from a validated vendor.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The lifetime warranty is available to the original purchaser. I don't believe it carries to used parts.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Ouch, you are right. Prelude weight distribution is 65-35. I thought I remembered something to do with a 50-50 distribution, though now that I think about it 50-50 weight on a FWD car is damn impossible lol. It doesn't invalidate any of my calculations on the matter however. As for advice on the internet, I've found that the less someone seems to care whether you take their advice, the more you should probably take it. Haha. Its the people who demand you listen to them only that I avoid.

Yeah, like you said and I think is very true, I am my own R&D in a way. And that can be good and bad, hence why I am here asking questions. My game plan is to call Ground Control as I'm sure they map out all the different spring rates they sell and what the buyers intended purpose was. I'm sure with the wealth of knowledge they certainly have on their own product that they can help construct a set of springs customized the way I want them. I have plenty of resources to tap into here, as a Northern California resident, there is a very large import scene around here.

I like the idea of basically taking an OTS set and either sticking with that or giving it a little firmness. I need to check with vendors as well, prices I see are in the $315 range but I've yet to ascertain whether that means its purely an OTS set and if I want my own spring rates, I'll have to pay more. The $50 or so uptick in price for custom rates is well worth the money to me. I also found that I would need to special order the GC anyways, as they build the sleeves to different specs depending on the strut. I never thought about it this way, but all strut bodies are not the same diameter, since most have welded on spring perches. So I've got a little research to do.

I did have time to call Neuspeed, who sold me the Konis. I was curious 1) which mounting ring is considered stock ride height, and 2) whether my best bet going forward would be to either mount the sleeved body from the stock height ring and use the coilover adjustability to drop the ride height 1.5" or to mount the sleeves from the "lowered" ring perch and not compress the springs as much.

The reason I ask is because I found out the Ground Controls are progressive springs (at least that's what I read, haven't confirmed), so I don't want to compress them too much and end up hardening the spring rates with too much preload. That, and I wasn't sure whether if I used the "lowered" ring perch I might get more shock travel or at least if it would be better for the long term health of the strut. I plan to contact Koni and Ground Control directly on Friday, but if anyone has any info in that matter I'd love to hear it. I'm hoping to purchase the GCs before Friday. I'd like to start this project this weekend. Probably not realistic, but its good to have goals.

@KINGDEE
I was planning on purchasing a second set of GC springs sometime in the summer when some track events will become available to me. I was hoping to just need to buy much harder rear springs for track use, but its becoming apparent I'll just need an extra track set. I do like you advice on a slightly harder setup than the OTS ones.

I actually had the chance to buy a set of Koni/GC used for $350, and later, for $250 used (semi) locally a few months back. Both sets were claimed to have 3-5k miles on 'em, and at the time, I wasn't sure I was even going Koni/GC and at least when it comes to dampers, I would never buy them used. You never know how badly they were beat on. Especially Konis. The go-to strut for big drops and track days. Springs, sure, I'd buy 'em used. Though I come to find out, GC is more expensive than I remembered it being and the Koni could have been revalved easily. Though there's something to be said for keeping the lifetime warranty by being the original purchaser. Your math adds up to $775 though You must not be a Prelude guy.. no way did you get Prelude Konis for $450. Plus just top hats, period. Us Prelude guys are stuck with our big 'ol upper strut mounts. Either that or insane $500 pillowball mounts.

Thank you both, for the thoughts and the replies and the help. Its good to have another area with which to sound questions off of. I've been into Hondas since I was 16. I'm now 32. This is my first foray into dedicated coilover sleeves (the $70 coilovers on stock struts when I was in high school that blew within a month and made driving miserable notwithstanding lol). I've always stuck with struts and springs, namely the same AGX/Neuspeed Sport- the same setup I originally purchased.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

GC's are usually linear. I don't think I've ever seen a progressive set. As with any spring (especially progressive ones), it is best to have *some* small amount of preload. Loose springs are not the ideal. But extremely preloaded springs are not ideal either.

Progressive springs don't work the way you're thinking. The soft coils are usually there just as dead coils to take up space. This way, you still get a higher ride height with a soft spring. But...again...GC's are linear.

It doesn't matter if you use the stock perch, lower perch, or top perch. They are adjustable coilovers. Unless you run out of adjustment with one of the perch settings.....its all the same. You just adjust the spring to get a ride height. I wouldn't over think it.

THmotorsports.com is a really good place for Koni/GC setups.

Koni specific sleeves shouldn't be special order. They're very popular.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

THmotorsports is one of my fav places, haha. Great vast selection and great prices. Got my AGX from them recently for $340 shipped, still waiting on the actual refund but so far they've been more than great with their customer service too.

So right, I don't want to risk binding the springs by starting with too much preload or have the coil isolators bouncing around in loose springs. I was under the 110% impression GC was fixed spring rates- which as an adjustable coil sleeve would make absolute sense- until I happened across a big chart of GC sleeve spring types and only a few were marked off as progressive, one was next to the 92-96. I haven't found any other evidence beyond that, and I should have saved the page. I don't remember where it was. But I'm gonna go forward under the pretense they are fixed springs. Progressive wouldn't make any sense anyways.

The Koni retailer I used, Neuspeed, said that each perch is for a different "stock" height in different markets, and the top ring is stock for North America. The struts arrived tonight and the snap ring was already in place there, so I will leave it as is and adjust ride height accordingly. I just didn't want to affect spring pre-load by leaving the circlip too high then going too low-level if "low" only means 1.5 to 1.75.

I got to some more research and thinking and came across an interesting scenario. What if I traded slightly longer springs for a lower spring rate? OTS GCs are 8" long & I believe ~375 lbs up front. If I went with a 9" spring, could I drop the spring rate quite a bit to maybe 300 and possibly end up having a very similar effect than had it left it normal length & rate? My thinking goes that that would make the suspension more prone to wavering and a little less predictable, but also very controllable as it'd be more reliant on related component factors such as sway bar stiffness, firmness of bushings bushings, the stiffness of the dampers and the alignment settings, particularly a little toe-in. I could theoretically get more control and adjustability in the suspension going this route, and it could give me a softer street ride while not diminishing the handling significantly at all to boot. Like I'm not overly concerned with the streetability, but if I could knock back the spring rates by 75-100 this way to achieve the better of both worlds I'd do it. My only concern would be spring binding but I'm not sure that even at 9" that'd be a real concern. What are your thoughts on this? A win-win or is there some drawbacks I'm not aware of?

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

My thought process on a longer softer spring is that the cars weight will cause the longer spring to compress just as much as a shorter harder spring without sacrificing too much streetability.

The GC OTS rates are 380/240.

KoRn_vIRuZ

The amount of compression does not depend on spring length, just spring rate. In terms of length you just need it to be long enough so that under maximum compression the coils don't touch, turning the spring into a solid piece (also known as coil bind).

I recommend you go with OTS GC springs. They figured out the proper length and rates.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Gotcha. My theory may hold weight in a vacuum but I see what you're saying. I didn't mean the compression depended on spring length, just that the longer softer spring could compress just as much as as a shorter harder. But GC has spent a long time engineering this stuff, so I will defer to them on length.

I've thought and researched long and hard and I think I want the rear spring nearly as hard as the front. I want the back end tightened up pretty significantly. I'm thinking I'll go with 380f/325r. I think that'll be a fair compromise on my goals for the car. I can always go softer rear later for a minimal $100 in 2 springs should I choose to

KoRn_vIRuZ

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