hcaulfield57

Hi all,

I'm currently in the process of restoring my new (to me) 93' Civic DX hatchback. The car has a little over 200k miles on it, and is in fairly rough condition. My intended usage for the car is a reliable, economical, fun daily driver. This is my first "fun" FWD car and I purchased it hoping to expand my horizons beyond my RWD 83' RX-7. I'm already impressed with the cars handling and road-holding despite being completely stock and very worn out. I was going to leave the suspension completely stock, but I think with a few tweaks this car should be able to out-handle my RX-7 and be very fun and rewarding to drive. I bought this car to see if a FWD car could be as fun and rewarding to drive as a RWD car.

I've been doing a lot of reading on the forums, and I have some vague ideas for a suspension setup, but I want some opinions before I actually buy anything. I'll probably start suspension work in the Spring. A few caveats:
- this car is my daily driver, I do have another car, but I don't want this car to be so harsh and unforgiving that I don't want to drive it. This is my "go to" car.
- occasionally I'll have to drive the car in light snow (<6in) / ice, I don't want a car that oversteers uncompromisingly in the snow. I realize I'll have to be careful, but I purposely bought this as my car for the snow. I hated driving my old Subaru Outback.
- I don't want to put any garbage parts on my car, if something I've listed is poor quality let me know.
- the car will mostly be used for driving to work (stop and go traffic) and the occasional drive in the mountains after work.
- I'd like the car to have neutral to slight oversteer handling characteristics, ultimately I want a car that will out-handle many stock RWD sports cars.

The following setup seems (to me) that it would fit my goals:
- Hardrace or PIC bushings
- OEM / Mugen rear trailing arm bushings
- Koni Yellow shocks
- Ground Control coilover sleeves
- spring rates of around 250f/250r
- OEM 92-95 Civic Si front lower control arms
- OEM 92-95 Civic EX 21mm front swaybar
- OEM 94-01 Integra rear lower control arms
- OEM 94-01 Integra Type-R 22mm rear swaybar
- Function7 or ASR rear subframe brace
- OEM 92-95 Civic rebuilt manual steering rack or Quaife 3.25 lock to lock steering rack

I'd like to use as many OEM parts as possible, to ensure reliability and streetability. I wanted to use OEM bushings, but at ~700$, I think aftermarket are a more economical decision. Most will probably think that those springs rates are overly soft, and if it will ruin the driving experience, please suggest something else. I suppose if the car is too tail-happy in the snow, I could take off the rear swaybar and soften the rear shocks during the winter. My stock manual steering rack is very sloppy and vague right now, I'll probably need to adjust it or replace it. I would like very precise, communicative, tight manual steering on this car. The slow ratio doesn't really bother me, but I'm playing around with the idea of getting the Quaife unit if it drastically improves the driving experience. Having a "driver's car" is very important to me, and this is what I'd like to accomplish here.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance, I apologize if this thread comes off as ignorant, I've tried to do my research, but we'll see.

eHMxhACk

iTrader: (17)

Save your money and use the Hardrace RTA bushings. And not that it'll make any real difference, but the Integra uses a 22mm front anti-sway bar.





eH.

hcaulfield57

The only reason I was thinking about the OEM trailing arm bushings was because I've seen a lot of talk about binding on the rear suspension, but I couldn't determine whether it was just speculation or actual information.

I also thought about running no front swaybar, but I imagine it might make the car a bit tail-happy...?

DJackson1357

Personally I'd run Honda OEM RTA bushings. I picked up a set with the CRV part number (supposed to be a slightly higher duro than stock, but not sure if that's true) off eBay a few years back for like $50 bucks or so. I'd run the Hardrace RTA bushings for a few years and when I was swapping this suspension to a new car found that they had both torn on the front side. They were clocked / installed properly too. I still have Hardrace bushings everywhere else just didn't like the RTA unit. FWIW the OEM RTA bushing is way easier to install, the Hardrace ones are a bit larger in diameter which makes it really tight. The OEM's will go in with a deadblow hammer, it took a press to get the Hardrace in.

I ran Koni / GC for a bit on a DD and didn't like it. Ended up removing it and going with a set of H&R coilovers instead. They work pretty well for a DD. I've rode in a few cars with Tein's before and really like them. Almost wish I picked up a set of Street Advance for my car.

To be honest my favorite DD setup on a Civic was stock springs with Tokico Illumina shocks, good bushings throughout and an Integra 24mm front bar and 14mm rear bar. Lots of ground clearance and soaked up bumps very well. The swaybars kept everything decent around corners. Downside is the wheel gap, but that doesn't really bother me.

hcaulfield57

Thanks for the comments.

I have Illumina shocks on my RX-7 and it's pretty stiff, but I also have uprated springs. The only thing I don't like about the Illumina shocks is the adjuster which is pretty flimsy - I broke one my first time installing them. I don't really care about looks, I'm still running the stock 13" steelies and have no intention of swapping them out - performance and functionality are more important to me than looks. How did this handle in terms of body roll? The body roll is pretty bad right now, it still actually handles pretty well, but the body roll makes it less fun. I know you can run soft spring rates and large swaybars to deal with body roll, but I'm kind of feeling the car is so soft right now, that even moderate spring rates will improve things.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Konis and ground controls with off the shelf rates (like 330/250) will work great for a DD....as long as you're not lowering it like a maniac.

Seeing as this car is so light, you *should* be able to lower it 1.5" or so on this particular chassis before you start seeing issues. Basically, if you know how to measure shock travel and ensure that you have enough of it (up front especially)....you'll do well. There is some user engineering involved in Koni/GC setups.

I've been really happy with my Tein SA's on 2 different daily driven cars. One set is at 60K miles and seems to be aging at this point. But...if the cost of the system is $575 every 60K miles...then that's still not terrible. They may last longer on a hatchbox. I'm using them on a heavyassed TSX sedan and Sportwagon.

Rubber bushings are a good call. Just make sure you properly clock them.

hcaulfield57

I don't want to lower the car that much.

My concern with rates like the default GC rates is that they're front-biased. I'd really prefer a neutral / rear biased setup. I want the car to rotate nicely into corners. Maybe that can be accomplished with a rear swaybar and no front swaybar? I'm mostly questioning what rates to run and also want to make sure I haven't picked out anything that's incompatible with the car.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

250/250 should work fine at a ride height close to that of the ITR. 250/250 is what the DC2 ITR comes on.

I think that, combined with the 22mm rear bar, and the hatchbox's short wheelbase should make it pretty neutral.

hcaulfield57

Okay, good I'm glad I'm on the right track I suppose. I was thinking about those rates because that's what the ITR/CTR come with stock, and my Civic is a bit lighter than both of them, and this way I can maintain an OEM-ish setup. I was thinking about maybe running those spring rates and then running only a rear 14mm swaybar from a GSR with no front swaybar. I suppose if I want more rotation, I can later install a larger rear swaybar. And with the Koni/GC setup it should be easy and cheap to later change to different spring rates if I'm unhappy with it.

On a different note, the first thing I want to do to the suspension is replace bushings, ball joints and wheel bearings. I have access to a hydraulic press, so the install shouldn't be too bad. I plan on doing OEM ball joints and wheel bearings, but how about Hardrace vs PIC bushings. As far as I can tell there isn't much difference between the two, aside from the PIC being a bit stiffer. If that's the case I'll probably just go with the Hardrace bushings.

DumpdEJ6

This sounds like a great daily driver project. I would, however, recommend a front sway bar regardless. It does a lot to keep the drive wheels planted in corners, if you want a neutral/tail-happy feel then experiment with different sized rear sway bars, but a front sway should be default. I have Koni/GC on my 1999 Civic hatchback with rates of 550f/450r and it is pretty stiff. However, I have those springs rates because I planned on lowering the car significantly. 350f/250r or even 350f/350r might still be pretty comfortable.

hcaulfield57

Thanks for the input, I'm really enjoying the car so far.

I'm still a bit confused regarding the front swaybar. There seems to be a debate along the same lines as inclusion of a rear swaybar for the RX-7 (and other RWD) cars I'm familiar with. I did some searching and research and some people swear by running a front swaybar on a FWD car, and others do not like it. It looks like the smallest front swaybar I could use is the 92'-95' EX/Si swaybar which looks like it's either 21mm or 22mm (I've seen conflicting information online). It seems like a front swaybar is absolutely mandatory on MacPherson strut cars, which is of course not the case with our cars. I know a larger diameter front swaybar really helped the handling on my RX-7 (front MacPherson struts). I'm still quite a bit away from deciding.

On a different note, I can't really see why the almost universal consensus of the internet is "FWD sucks". I own a small FWD and a small RWD car. Neither have anything in the way of driver aids. Both offer a very fun, rewarding driving experience. I've been driving my Civic for about a month now, and I don't feel it "sucks" because it's FWD - it's just different. The Civic feels totally different than my RX-7, but it's still fun and I'm enjoying exploring some of the different handling characteristics. In my opinion a fun car is a fun car, regardless of drivetrain layout.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The beauty of building this type of car is its simple effectivty.

Try the front bar.

Hate it?

Remove it.

I like having a front bar for "feel". I've left the 24mm front bar in on all my ITR "builds".

The internet is full of opinions. Most FWD cars are terrible if we're comparing apples to apples.

Honda has built a niche market because almost all their cars are FWD...and almost none of them suck.

I think you're in love with the overall formula for a civic. Most people do fall for them once they try them.

In 2001, I bought my first honda. A 90 hatchbox for a daily driver to supplement my RWD 240SX.

I would always make fun of FWD cars...hondas in particular for being slow/not handling well.

After buying one....I would never admit it at the time...but the single cam, dual point injection civic was more satisfying in almost every way to my turbocharged SR20 240SX.

I have since owned nothing except Hondas. I do like RWD...so my 240 ended up being replaced by a S2000. My civic was replaced by many civics...and now a 6MT TSX.

I have no stupid illusions anymore about all FWD cars being slow.

hcaulfield57

I really like small, simple, light cars. I'd really like to import a Peugeot 205 GTI or Alfasud as a "weekend" car some day.

When I first got into cars I owned a 300ZX Twin-Turbo. Anything that wasn't turbo-charged and RWD was basically garbage in my mind. I gradually evolved into liking small NA cars. Started researching 70's/80's hot-hatches, and realized they contained most of the characteristics I liked, except being FWD. So I became open to the idea that FWD cars could be fun to drive. One of my main reasons for buying this car was to try a "fun" FWD car. I was pretty evenly split between an 88'-91' hatch and 92'-95' hatch (even considered an 83'-87' hatch), but decided on the 93', since it was newer and only marginally heavier than the 4th gen cars.

In my opinion, most people don't like FWD cars because the market has been flooded with boring, uninteresting FWD cars with no thought put into making them fun to drive. There are a lot of RWD cars that fit this category too, and my Civic is more fun than some RWD cars I've driven. I like it more than my old 300ZX. Sounds like a similar experience to me. I used to say "oh but it's FWD, it must suck", but despite the obvious handling advantage that RWD cars have, FWD cars can handle well and be very rewarding to drive. I think the Civic should be able to outhandle my RX-7 by the time I'm done with it, certainly not now though, it's very worn out.

hcaulfield57

Doing some thinking about my suspension plans for the Civic.

I decided I don't want to do a "compromise" setup in order to drive the car in the Winter. I think I'll probably just keep the stock springs/shocks and swap them over in late October when it looks like snow, and then going back to a Summer setup come early April or so. The only disadvantage to this is having to get an alignment twice a year.

This means I'm going to run the EX/Si front swaybar and ITR rear swaybar along with whatever spring rate is tolerable on the street. I'm now leaning towards 300F/300R or 350F/350R. The amount of body roll in the car right now is almost sickening, so a stiffer suspension will be much welcome.

To be honest I'm actually quite impressed with the car in it's current form. It may be true that it has a ton of body-roll, loads of play in the steering, and understeers a lot - but it's still a lot of fun to drive. The car offers a lot of communication on what it's doing, and that feedback and communication is what makes it fun. It's very throttle steerable and quite nimble. With a proper suspension setup, it should be oodles of fun.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I also get 2 alignments a year on my DD cars. I raise them slightly for winter. I bought a lifetime alignment.

If you're motivated enough to swap out the suspension and re-clock the bushings, for winter...when its cold out...and the wolves are after you...every year....it would be suprising.

hcaulfield57

I totally forgot about the bushings. Is it just the trailing arm bushings that have to be re-clocked or are there others? Do you re-clock the bushings as well?

I guess my rationale was that I can remove both front struts on my RX-7 in about 30 min, and it's MacPherson strut so a bit more involved, so the Civic would be maybe a few hours to do everything? I just imagine that driving on snow and ice with a hard suspension would be difficult to down-right dangerous. The car is on all-seasons now, and it does okay.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The RTA bushing is the only one you'd need to press out to re-clock. Idk if you want to do that at the change of every winter season.

Bushings that need to be clocked when you change heights:

Front:
-UCA to chassis mount
-LCA to subframe
-LCA to shock

Rear:
-RTA
-UCA to trailing arm
-Toe arm (both ends)
-LCA to shock
-LCA to subframe
-LCA to trailing arm

Everything but the RTA simply needs to be loosened...and then re-tightened at the new height.

250 - 300LB isn't a hard suspension. 250LB is the rate of the stock ITR springs. OTS ground control rates hover around 350F and 250R.

And no....it won't be difficult or dangerous in snow. I'd suggest winter tyres. While they're extremely useful, I would not describe them as "necessary".

The rates you are looking at are all "street car" rates. Track/race setups are typically in the 750-1000LB region.

I would, however, do something about coating the shocks for road salt, if your state/county uses it. Konis, for all their good traits, still have like...the worst coating ever made.

I would just buy an OTS setup...or something like 400F/250R. A stiffer front rate will give you less roll and better response without punishing you via diminished ride quality. For a street car, FEEL is what makes the big effect. Adding rear roll stiffness is useful on these cars at the track, but it just ends up beating the **** out of you on the street for no good reason. If you're pushing the car to its limit on the street (why?), then you'd probably rather have it tend to understeer anyway.

hcaulfield57

Okay, well I definitely don't want to repress the trailing arm bushings every-time, so I'll go with a setup that I think will be tolerable all year round. Thanks for telling me it wouldn't work, because that would have been a huge hassle.

I suppose the reason why the spring rates have confused me, is because my RX-7 has spring rates of 155F/125R, and it's pretty stiff. Although it has a totally different suspension design, weight distribution, etc. I bet the difference between MacPherson struts and double-wishbone has something to do with it. Anyways, I'm glad to know it shouldn't be a problem in the snow and ice. I think it's likely I'll just get a second set of wheels with snow tires then. I'm highly considering getting a set of VX wheels for the Summer. I love the looks of them, and I quite like the look of 13" wheels (I know I'm in the minority).

I'd really just like to get rid of the body roll, and get rid of the "push" feeling from the front end when cornering, for a more neutral feeling. I've ordered new OEM upper and lower ball-joints on the front-end, as well as wheel bearings. Hopefully once I get those installed I'll be able to get bushings installed next. Unfortunately with the snow, I haven't made the progress on the car I've wanted to, but it will be Spring-time (pun-intended) soon enough.

Another question:

1) What, if any, effect do the driveshafts have on steering feel? I have at least one ripped boot, I've ordered new boots, and I'm hoping to rebuild the axles this weekend perhaps. The car has a bit of torque steer right now, very noticeable if you let off the throttle when going in a straight line. I'm guessing this is a result of worn bushings and ball-joints, but wanted to know if I should investigate into the drive-shafts as well. I know engine-mounts make a difference, but I don't know how likely these are to be worn out. The car has nearly 205,000 miles now.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The motion ratios on a RX7 are different than that on a civic. Mcpherson strut MR's are about 1:1. A 175LB/in spring would be ~175LB/in at the wheels. The rear of a RX7 is a live axle...which will feel a bit harsh just by design.

A civic probably has like a 1.5 or 1.6 MR (wheel:shock). With a 1.5MR, the same 175LB spring has an effect of ~78.5LB at the wheels.

All that aside, they're different cars. The civic probably has slightly stiffer chassis...which helps with ride quality, and different seating positions in comparison to the wheels, different weight distributions, etc.

I can tell you from experience on a Civic hatchbox that, for street use, the typical human won't want to go past about 250LB for comfort reasons. With stock konis and all that. Note that almost every OTS GC kit for 4th-6th gen civics and 2nd to 3rd gen integras comes with about a 250LB rear spring.

But different people have different ideas of comfort. I wouldn't compare it to the RX7 though.

Torque steer is fairly normal. It can be made worse by an axle that is binding due to a ripped boot and contamination. Also...see the length of the driver side axle?

A helpful tip for ball joints/tie rods. Genuine Honda is probably the best. Bernardiparts.com or other discount sites are a good resource for geniune parts. OEM is another good option. I think people use Sankei ball joints with luck. Avoid Moog or other parts store brands.

hcaulfield57

Thanks for the response, never heard about motion ratio before, I'll have to research it for fun.

I may just go back to my original idea of 250F/250R, maybe I'll try 300, but I want to error in the side of caution, since this is supposed to be an "easy" car to drive, if it's too stiff for day-to-day comfort, it kind of defeats the purpose for me. Main reason I thought about 250F/250R is because that's the rates for the ITR/CTR stock, and everyone raves about how good of a handler they are stock form. RX-7 is a bad example, since it was designed in the late 70's vs early 90's for the Civic, totally different suspension design, weight distributions, etc. I just used it as an example since it's the only remotely stiff car I've ever driven. My old 300ZX was pretty soft by comparison. My Civic feels sportier than the 300ZX to be honest.

Yea, I know that torque steer is inherent to the transversely mounted / unequal length driveshaft setup, and it's honestly not bad, in some ways it adds to the driving experience in a positive way, just because it's different. Just wondering if it was indicative of something. The steering is super vague, so I'm sure that can't be helping either. I'm hoping the steering will get better after replacing ball-joints and bushings, but I may end up buying a reconditioned rack or even new OEM one. I'm not going to do the Quaife like I mentioned in my first post, the slow steering ratio doesn't bother me, it's about the same as my RX-7.

I went with OEM ball-joints and front wheel bearings. I try to use OEM parts if possible. I'm pretty sure I'm going with the Hardrace bushing set, because it's supposed to be stiffer than stock, and I really don't want to spend ~$1,000+ for OEM bushings. I'm unsure of which rear-subframe brace to go with, both the Function7 and ASR look like quality products. I'd like to keep the weight down, the Function7 looks lighter, but hard to tell. My DX hatch was purposely chosen since it's one of the lighter models, (although kind of a pig by Civic standards ).

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Wheels and tires do a lot for steering feel. 15x7 +40 wheels, and good, performance oriented, summer 205/50/15 tires are popular choices.

Throw some snow tires on the stock wheels.

You'll have a non-compromise set for both seasons.

hcaulfield57

What about alignment, that's something I haven't asked about yet.

I'd imagine the alignment currently isn't great, but I'm going to leave it alone until I get the suspension work done. My understanding is that a FWD car should have some toe-out on the front wheels and probably zero toe on the rear wheels. I've seen mixed things about toe-out on the rear wheels, some people seem to suggest it makes the car too twitchy for normal driving.

patrEK9

0 toe all around

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Get a lifetime alignment from Firestone or similar. Adjust when you want. For a street car, I'd just use the factory front toe of 0 and rear toe of +0.08ish. Or go for the "straight" end of spec on the back. 0.05" or something, IIRC.

hcaulfield57

Will the car wander too much with toe-out on the front wheels and become obnoxious to drive on the street?

So far I've replaced: wheel bearings, upper and lower ball-joints with OEM parts. I didn't notice a huge change, I think mine were probably not in bad condition, but oh well. In spite of the body-roll, the car actually feels pretty neutral at street legal speeds, so I'm fairly happy so far, but I know there's a lot of improvement to be had. My main priority is to keep the nice throttle steerability that the car has. The car really responds well to throttle steering and is probably my favorite thing about the car.

My next "mod" will be Si front lower control arms and Integra GSR rear lower control arms. I'm replacing all the bushings on the car with OEM. I'm still brainstorming about spring rates, whether to do the Quaife quick rack and which subframe brace to get (Function 7 or ASR). I'm planning on doing the Si 22mm front swaybar along with the USDM Integra Type-R 22mm rear swaybar. This isn't a race car, and it's actually pretty good completely stock, but I think the car would be more fun to drive with less body-roll.