teknicalissue

Greetings!

I think it's time that I share with you guys what I've been working on for the last two years. I've decided to share this now because I'm starting to slowly see some positive results.

2 Years ago I sat down and asked myself "Seriously, why the hell can't anyone create an electric turbo that works?". I chased this idea left and right and went down a rabbit hole of Formulas, theories, and physics and I came out with pretty good idea of how to make it work. I even spoke to various university professors and professionals and they all agreed that with enough power, it should work; it would be silly to think otherwise.

First off.. this is a controversial topic thanks to cheap eBay craptasticle products that plagued this idea form ever being able to move forward and yes I said a bad word.. I said "Electric Turbo". Mind you.. this isn't your computer fan powered by a double A battery like you see on eBay lol Oh no.. This is a high speed 75,000 RPM electric motor powered by 48V and pulling 250A of current (500A peak). Before you say it.. NO! the cars alternator or battery or anything powers this thing. I have a separate battery cell that handles all of that of course.

Anyways, I've been working on this for the last two years and considering that I was using a 1994 Honda Accord F22 motor.. I figured it was appropriate to share with the Honda crowd and gather thoughts and perhaps feedback! No I'm not selling these now but plan to much much later and yes, I have a beta testing program open right now on my facebook page.

The high powered electric motor is attached to a GT3582r housing with an 88mm compressor wheel. This combination was ideal for the 75,000 RPM motor speed but for my next prototype; I'm going to be experimenting with 110 - 120mm wheels. That being said, feel free to ask question guys and let's keep the bashing at a reasonable level. When I first proposed this idea to the guys over at the Audi forum; I was told it would never build pressure and that it would never make power. Today I proved these guys wrong and I want to be clear that 61hp gain isn't my goal. I'm shooting for 150whp - 200whp (on top of my stock 121whp) as my target goal!

I'll be posting the After Dyno sheets and some more pic/videos soon!

Here is a video of the run:

The wheel wasn't balanced and it was hitting the compressor housing which was of course affecting the total power output of the unit. You can hear this happening here:
SOON

Here is the Before Dyno run:




Here is the After:




Currently I'm working on making the electric turbo trigger based on RPMs and TPS vs how it is now which is strictly TPS. Would love to hear some feedback, concerns and ideas from you guys!

The battery has been an interesting topic so here is a picture Battery pack we are using:

Geis

I just don't get the point really, no offense. When you think of how much exhaust energy it takes to push big numbers on standard turbochargers, it becomes a no-brainer that what is needed to make an e-turbo is an insanely powerful motor with the correct pulley ratio. However, for those who want more low end power without the turbo lag, I would think twin charging is (usually) the superior option.

Best of luck with your endeavors.

2kdrift

Tend to agree with geis on this I dont see electric chargers ever being able to keep up with a turbocharger at the higher HP levels which is what most car enthusiasts want, Im sure there could be a market for it if the price was right

I seem to recall this post as its been talked about in production vehicles from the factory http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...lag-valeo-says

Kinda ironic the audi forum didn't believe you

teknicalissue

I think this is inaccurate and I would even argue that the Forced Induction market agrees with me. How so? Well why do supercharger exists? Why does Nitrous exist? We all know that Exhaust Driven turbo's are the most efficient way of making power. After all, you're making power from waste. That being said, this doesn't stop people from running superchargers or Nitrous for that matter. Everyone knows a supercharger can't out perform a turbo but yet we see products that are sold everyday making around 7 ~ 10 PSI.

On a side note, yes it takes a lot of energy to make big numbers.. I don't argue that Power has to come from somewhere which is why the 12V crapchargers on eBay just don't do anything. But.. Thanks to electric cars; Batteries are becoming incredibly cheap. Why does this matter? because in the electrical side of things Power (your form of exhaust energy) comes in as Voltage and Amps. So knowing this, exactly HOW much power is needed to run big numbers? Surely 100% of the vehicles exhaust isn't hitting the turbine.. that's why we have waste gates! Of course I have formulas for this kind of stuff and I can get an approximate calculation of how much power is needed to make X PSI and/or WHP (based on engine displacement).

Thanks! this would of course be a no brainer; get the electric turbo to provide boost on the low end until the larger turbo kicks in and provides power at the high end. Keep in mind; we don't have plans to replace a conventional turbocharger for the above reasons (efficiency, etc..) but we do have plans of adding yet another product that produces real gains in the market. I would almost argue that our direct competitors would be centrifugal pulley based superchargers rather than traditional turbos.

Also it is worth mentioning that there is no pulley here. This is an electrical motor connected directly to a compressor wheel.

We all have to start somewhere right? Keep in mind that a majority of electric turbo's (the technical term would be superchargers )out on the market can't make power. If they claim it makes power we don't see proof. I think just the fact that I proved to everyone that the electric turbo that I made compressed air and made power is a big step forward towards the right direction. Sure it made a measely 61HP, but we have plans to make changes and are shooting for a 120hp gain on our next prototype. It's all about the baby steps if you ask me

Yea.. They tried to tell me it was a waste of time and that I should just get headers for my S6 instead...

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I'm going to be keeping an eye on this. If I see any further hint of what I'm gathering as "self-promotion" (trust me, I know the difference), I have no option but to close this. If you have more technical information or data that isn't considered an advertisement, that would behove you to place that in here as soon as you can.

I know how others would feel if I were self-promoting, so I'm just trying to be impartial.

Carry on with the discussion, but please tread lightly.

teknicalissue

Thanks! Honestly I just felt that it would be cool to share this information as a "Look what I made guys!" on top of trying to destroy the perception that Electrical Turbos don't work. Aside from this, Has anybody seen a video of a real electric turbo working on the internet? If anything I'm promoting awareness that electric turbos if made right can make power but since I did make the product; I understand how it can also come across as self-promotion. Just want to clarify that I'm not selling anything at this point as I'm still in the process of fine-tuning the prototype. On top of all of this, I included my facebook link simply because it contained all the pictures/videos of the build.. If it's more appropriate; I can remove the link and try to upload all of the pics and vids here.

That being said I should get the After Dyno results in at some point today and I'll be able to share the before and after results with you guys. Perhaps start some discussion around this similar to the discussion I had started on another forum.

But of course, if you feel like this is leaning more towards self-promotion then feel free to delete the thread.. I'm here to prove a point not get mods upset or skirt the rules

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Thank you for your honesty. If you would, please remove the Facebook link and simply post the videos and photos directly here. What I'll do is again, continue to monitor this thread, and if the discussion seems to "promote itself", I'll retitle it to the topic of electric /hybrid Forced Induction, so that it promotes the conceptual and practical ideals of electric-infused induction.

Sound good?

teknicalissue

Works for me!

Nurburgring

Have seen a lot of this in GT86/BRZ forums. It works, with some significant drawbacks, but it works.

Audi already has already implemented this in one of their production cars, but it is significantly different in its operation:

"In the SQ7 engine, the electric supercharger takes about a quarter of second to activate and quickly spins the small turbo to its effective 70,000 rpm level. The intervention of the electric supercharger lasts for 2 to 3 seconds, and then exhaust gases reach the necessary pressure to give the traditional turbo its required energy. Over 2,500 rpm, the small traditional turbo is bypassed as the second, larger turbo comes in to play to boost output up to 435 hp.
The electric supercharger needs 48 volts to operate, which is provided by a subsystem added on to the traditional 12 Volt electric architecture of the vehicle."

ShinsenTuner

iTrader: (1)

Could be a great way to eliminate lag.

teknicalissue

Yea I tried to show this to the Audi guys but they just weren't having it. BUT the concept exists and if implemented well it can eliminate boost lag. From my tests I saw a spike of 10PSI as soon as you hit WOT (no lag) and as the RPM's rose, the PSI decreased and leveled off to 5.

It's an interesting concept because it would definitely help spool your larger turbo quicker. More early on boost in, more exhaust out, which ultimately leads to a turbine spinning faster. From a tuning perspective, we didn't see knock but had to increase the system's fuel pressure a tad because we were going too lean on that 10 PSI spike.

Obviously having this thing run off TPS isn't ideal which is why I'm currently trying to find a wire I can tap into so I can read engine RPM's.. I think it's the green wire by the Dizzy on a 1994 accord correct?

By next week I should have the software running off TPS AND RPM so it can be tuned a little better.

blitzman

Valid concept but where's the extra current going to come from for the e-turbo without adding battery weight to the vehicle?

mrdrpep

I like the idea for testing and proving it can work but I don't know about long term reliability. And I'm not referring to you specifically, teknicalissue. I like that you're trying something yourself, and you've proved that it can work. I'm talking about any manufacturer. In regards to Audi, neat concept. But what I see is more Audi's and VW's lined up with more broken junk under the hood. I have personally worked on Audi's and VW's (TDI's and regular) and while they can engineer certain mechanical components well, they cheap out on other parts and you end up breaking down on the side of the road because of some stupid thing. VW/Audi love to use plastic EVERYTHING under their hoods. They literally design the car to expire. Keep it simple and reliable.

It is interesting to me that people don't fully understand how power and efficiency work. People are quick to cry out the law of conservation of energy about how you cannot acquire free power/engery. While there's no such thing as "free" power (it has to come from somewhere), you can, however, use power to make something else more efficient thereby making it more powerful. By increasing the amount of air an engine would normally take in, you can increase the overall power output of the engine by increasing air/fuel. The amount of power it takes to power the electric motor can be overcome by the amount of power the overall system will make when supplied with fuel.

edit:
I forgot to mention, I have messed around with HHO generators on trucks. I even built a reliable HHO generator/system for my dodge ram that allowed me to gain in efficiency. It was enough HHO that I was able to decrease the amount of fuel the engine needed while at cruising speeds (best at 50mph) and was able to gain about 3-5 MPG better. The issue, however, is the eventual wear and tear on the alternator. While you may be providing more efficient and usable power back to the engine, it comes at a cost - the alternator is working hard and WILL wear out faster.

2kdrift

x2 biggest "problem" with this theory is the requirement of the 48v battery somehow charging the battery and the inability to power the supercharger for sustained periods of time

teknicalissue

Battery weight is negligible. A lot of people think that a 48V cell capable of sustaining 250A is a gigantic 200lbs battery. The truth is.. It's not; We have a lithium ion cell that weighs 12ish lbs powering the turbo.

It's true! I read an article somewhere that explained how they did exactly that. It's pretty crappy and it's why companies like tesla are slowly going to take over the market.

This is more truthful than you can believe. Through this project i've had HUNDREDS of people calling me stupid and bringing up the laws of thermo dynamics and such to try to explain to me why my idea will not work. At some point I felt defeated until I called a couple of professors at different Universities and they assured me that I wasn't breaking any laws. In fact they told me it was a simple problem. "All you need to do is pump more air than an engine can consume and make sure you are able to compress the excess air". I have screen shots on my computer somewhere with people calling me out. Technology is evolving and what we couldn't do with technology yesterday we can do today.

Nice! This is why I want to leave the electric turbo and car charging system separate. I want people to see this more like an E-Nitrous sort of deal that when you run out; you have to plug in instead of having to buy a bottle of nitrous.

I think that the charging won't be much of an issue. Sure you have to charge it on a wall but is that as big of a deal as having to buy a bottle of nitrous when it runs out? As far as sustained periods of time; the E-turbo can run WOT for 15 minutes straight. It may not be a whole hour but I think that 15 minutes WOT is more than enough. If it's not; adding a new row of cells wouldn't be that difficult nor expensive.

2kdrift

so you charge it at home take a 2 hour road trip and can get on it for 15 minutes....Ohh wait you forgot to charge it the night before so you are left with nothing

my turbo runs indefinitely and I never need to charge

dont take this the wrong way....but these are the issues I see. And assuming you somehow hit your 150HP goal this is going to use even more amperage/wattage further exaggerating this isue

teknicalissue

If you went on a 2 hour road trip and you used up all of your nitrous within those two hours you would be out of power until you purchased another bottle. With an electric turbo you could just charge it back up when you get to your destination. If you forgot to charge it the night before then yea that's a problem but not one that could be placed on the system. That would be like blaming a nitrous bottle for not being able to order a new one.

I'm not taking it the wrong way any feedback is good feedback. That being said, comparing your current turbo to this turbo is like comparing an apple to a red pepper.. Yes they're both red but they are two different things and they act 100% differently (makes power at different parts of the power band). A conventional turbo runs all the time while an electric turbo runs at set points. It's not supposed to run all the time nor do we want it to. Think of it as power on demand similar to nitrous vs power all the time like conventional turbos.
Keep in mind that 15 minutes WOT would be the equivalent of 75 - 12-second quarter mile passes. To some that is more than enough

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

A company makes units like these already in various different wheel sizes. The main issue is your average electric motor simply doesn't have the RPM capability to spin the wheel at a high enough speed to produce any significant airflow. Add in that the larger the wheel the more it weighs and then you run into the motor not having enough torque to spin it at an adequate RPM so ultimately the maximum RPM limit drops. You could try a planetary gear setup or something to increase the output speed but again you'd run into a lack of torque to reach elevated RPM levels, at least at any "reasonable" voltage levels you could produce in an automotive setting.

Your best bet would be to move to a smaller wheel and run some form of overdrive gear setup in order to reach some practical pressure ratios. You'd have a much more usable powerband vs spinning a larger turbo slower.

I love the creativity though, do some more tweaking and see what happens

Geis

Yeah as I read through more of this it sparked some interest as a potentially good alternative to the standard twincharging method, as this electric turbo could essential replace the supercharger portion of the setup completely and perhaps be more efficient/easier to setup. Cool ****, I probably won't need this for the foreseeable next couple of year but I can definitely see it being used in twin charged setups.

mrdrpep

I have an idea for you, but I want credit for it, haha. Mount a dedicated alternator somewhere that is driven by your axle or wheel somehow with the sole purpose of keeping your big battery "boosted" and ready. Like we already discussed, it's not free power but you could get crazy genius and utilize a variable pulley to have it active ... say... when you're braking... seems like I've heard of this before Regenerative braking. Just so you know, I could totally make that work for you but I'm a little busy :p

Are you familiar with how the friction pulleys work on lawn mower blades? you could even have a lever to activate said alternator when you need to charge up batt.

btw, I'm much more in favor of turbochargers but I like that you're trying stuff and making it work.

2kdrift

keeping a 48v battery charged is not easy, the motor for this e charger pulls alot of amperage. Im sure this is why Audi designed it the way they did. any additional alternators/generators will put additional strain on the motor energy is never free

turbochargers utilize energy that would normally be wasted by exiting the tailpipe this is a big part of how they can be so efficient

mrdrpep

This is very true but a true regenerative braking system (which is a lot more complex than my simple idea) is used to capture an incredible amount of power. Think about the potential energy of a 2500-3000lb car in motion and what's required to make it stop. When you brake, you're essentially wasting power that could be used. When you accelerate from a stop and get the car in motion and need to stop, slow down/brake, the power you used to accelerate has been 'wasted'. It's actually a similar concept when we utilize blow off valves on our charge pipes. There is a certain amount of energy required to spool up turbo but when we shift or let off throttle, we choose to totally dump the energy right out. That's a small example obviously.

Let me be clear though- I do NOT like the idea whatsoever of having a separate battery system and charging methods but I'm just trying to think and help out with ideas. I do NOT like hybrids at all (currently - this may change...), but they have had some impressive results and there is available potential energy to be pulled from a car in motion when needed. Another thing to note is the actual amount of use. With his battery fully charged prior to driving, and having some type of regenerative system on board, he will be able to get quite a bit of use out of it.

2kdrift

yes i saw that regenerative braking system mentioned on teh thread I posted, just doesent seem like much of an option as it would be different between different makes/models and would most likely cost way too much to justify using a e charger when there are other methods that arguably create better power more easily

im not trying to be negative nancy over here lol. I am pleased that this project is in action and I wish him nothing but the best but there are some serious obstacles to convince the masses. OEM manufactures have known about the possibilities in electric chargers but have never been released and for good reason

teknicalissue

Just uploaded the After graph... What do you guys think? It looks.. interesting to me. I wish I would have used a Manual car instead of an Automatic. (It was a cheap 300 test vehicle). Let's table the recharging conversation to the side as I want to talk about making sense of the graph and what's going on. To me I see the dips as the changes in gears and the spikes being the increase in boost based on the RPM's

Geis

I think you guys care waaay too much about the battery. It's like he said, ad some more cells and you have quite a bit of WOT charge to use. Only problem then is the rising costs, but he says they're pretty cheap so I dunno


having an alternator charge it would be just like having a supercharger in a twin charged setup, which is one case I see this being a really solid replacement for