mrdrpep

I need some trained eyes on these to get your thoughts. First of all...yes, I'm OBD0! No, it's not obsolete in my mind. I'm using BRE (Ben's Rom Editor) software and I have an old EPROMER6 programmer and using ATMEL29C256 chips. It's a little old school - I burn a chip and plug it directly into the ECU, but it works.

Car 91 CRX HF, b16a, Turbonetics T3/T4 (.63/.60) 8-10psi, DSM 450's bar & plate intercooler 2.5" exhaust, straight-thu cat, no muffler (flows good). I have an APSX D2 wideband gauge, bosch LSU 4.2.

For some reason, at idle, I'm getting around 18:1+ AFR's. I've enabled the o2 sensor in the tune (I have it wired to the simulated narrowband) and it tries to bring it down but ends up running very, very rich so I've disabled it. So much so, the car wants to die. I think I have a small exhaust leak causing it to misread at idle. If I blip the throttle at all, it brings it right around 14-15:1. With the o2 sensor disabled (in the tune), the car runs AWESOME. Good AFR's all through normal driving (13.5:1 - 14.5:1) and about 11:1 - 11.5:1 under full throttle boost. Car feels very powerful and I don't hear any spark knock. I believe I have my fuel tables where I want them but I would like some trained eyes to look at my low and high cam ignition tables. Let me know if anything stands out or if there's concern. (tables below)

Btw, this is absolutely NUTS in my mind, but I have checked my MPG several times and I'm consistently getting over 35mpg... in the city! I haven't taken any highway trips yet. I have a fairly short commute to work where the speed limit is never over 50mph, but I couldn't believe my miles per gallon. Pulled my plugs a few times and they look good. My previous crx was a 90 SI with a boosted ZC (small turbo) and I would get around 25 in the city. I guess the bigger turbo does better under normal driving.

Tables:

LOW CAM FUEL:



HIGH CAM FUEL:



LOW CAM IGNITION:



HIGH CAM IGNITION:

7rrivera7

iTrader: (1)

OBD0 is not dead at all - I have several customers here in Puerto Rico running on BRE and TurboEdit...

What do your target AFRs look like?

mrdrpep

I'm pretty happy with where my AFR's are but I wanted to make sure my ignition tables were ok (low cam & high cam). They seem a little advanced when I compare to other base tunes I've seen. I just want to make sure they're not too advanced.

My target AFR's are:
idle 15:1 - 16:1 (remember I'm not getting an accurate idle reading for some reason. If I enrich it in this area, it runs too rich so I believe this # to be lower)
light cruising 14.5:1 - 15:1 (20-15" vac)
highway cruising 13.5:1 - 14.5:1
low boost (0-4psi) 12.5:1 - 13.5:1
midboost (5-7 psi) 11.5:1 - 12:1
upper boost (8-11psi) 11.0:1 - 11.5:1

I ran my wideband ground back to the engine block (basically on top of the t-stat housing on distributor bolt) and recalibrated the o2. That seemed to make a difference from where I had it grounded under the steering column.

Masterl1nk

Hi!

You need to do some work in your timing tables. You need to advance it when you're revving higger. If you are running 24* at 8000, you will need near 23 at 7500 or so. Now maybe you are passing MBT (near to detonation) in mid range RPM.

1HGEJ2

iTrader: (1)

what? High rpm low load high ignition. High rpm high load low ignition.
Ignition looks ok..but i would reduce a little bit more timing at the end. Then ur safe and happy

Masterl1nk

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is he need to advance the ignition regards on RPM going up. I didn't say anything about load.

mrdrpep

Definitely not doing any more advance in the higher RPM, higher boost. My concern is that I'm already too far advanced. I could bring them down a notch in the 9-11psi for more retardation.

yungmulacrx

some software advances the timing with rpms already and table timin doesn't reflect that.. I'm not sure if this software does that..

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Ive been running bre for 3+ years now with good success. Are you using any form of knock detection? Im leary of street tuning ignition tables to their fullest potential without any knock detection. My tactic knowing this with my setup, im not going for full max hp potential. I basically and very archaically copy the last colum in before boost and paste it across all boost columns, than retard .65 degrees per psi. Its very conservative, but I have ran a friends comptech stage 2 si that made 290whp amd we were door to door. His car has since blown up, my self tuned obd0 b16 turbo is still healthy as a horse. Ill take a closer lool at your maps in the AM. Has far as timing in vacuum, I have stuck with thr OEM timing, and I get consistantly 38mpg highway(hand calculated).

the o2 is buggy with BRE. Ive tried using narrowband simulation and the o2 for years and could never get it to run correctly. I even installed an oem o2 and used that instead of the simulation and still wasnt right so now I simply rely on my maps and constantly tweak things here and there. Would you mind sharing your bin file at all so I can open it up in BRE?

mrdrpep

Glad to hear you've had good success. I like the idea of your ignition timing retard per psi through the columns. I've never been able to get the o2 right. I had trouble even before turbo, but mostly after I tuned with the 450cc injectors. The o2 would overcompensate and make it run too rich. I have a little dead spot in my tune around 20" (need to add a little fuel), but the tune by itself runs so good and I'm getting incredible mileage. I'm at work but may PM you the .bin later when I get home. I may like to look at yours as well if you have it.

My ignition tables are slightly more advanced in vacuum now (changed since I've posted those pics above). I've done some research on advancing the timing and going a tad on the lean side under normal driving conditions to increase mileage. I need to get an EGT sensor to monitor things a little more, but my fuel is conservative in boost.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

Yeah that would be fine. Ill send you a few if you want. I have different versions saved, testing different things, even have one im currently running that utilizes anti lag, building 10+ psi from a stop. Glad to hear some people are still tinkering and messing around with the grass roots stuff and not just relying on some self proclaimed tuner that has no vested interest in your build, and honestly no liability if the blow it up. Thats why I like learning and doing it myself, something goes wrong im the only one to blame. My could be a little smoother in certain places but 95% of vac maps are 14.3-15.2 and builds up slowly into boost holding about 11-11.5 full boost in vtec. My real trouble is I have never had the datalogging feature working. I cant figure how to save it to a file much less go back and view it. If I could do that, I can dial it perfectly. But i been using the map trace feature and pausing the screen when I hit a lean/rich spot, make the appropriate adjustment and retry. If you have any ideas on the datalogging stuff pm me ide like to pick your brain.

mrdrpep

I am not set up for data-logging yet. How are you doing that? Is your ECU modified or are you pulling it from your wideband?

Btw, I have essentially started over with my tune, but kept my fuel tables in boost (since that's where most of my time was spent). I was having some wacky issues with my idle and a weird deadspot or hole at a specific vacuum (20"). I replaced my TPS, plugs, and tried adjusting ignition/fuel in that area. I think my slight idle hiccup is from my turbo coolant lines running back to the throttle body. I'm running back to the FITV on bottom of TB and I think it's messing with my idle (going to change this), but I can't figure out this deadspot around 20". If I drive and keep the needle at 20", it kind of gets stuck and stays too lean. If I just barely increase the throttle, it kind of lurches forward to about 16-15" and drops to my normal 14.5:15.5 afr. It's so strange and only started recently so I'm essentially backtracking trying to figure out what changed. The tune does not seem to affect it. I've increase the fuel and restored the stock PR3 timing (in vac) and it still does it so I think I'm dealing with a sensor or some other issue. I've replaced my vac lines to the map sensor, etc.. and made sure everything was 'clamped' so they wouldn't pop off under boost pressure, but I'm just clueless about this deadspot. It could be my PCV too..... hmmm.

I'll PM you my updated .bin. I have the new file with me here at work

Other than that, I realized my original tables/map was too advanced under boost condtions (both low and high cam). I took your advise and essentially copied the last column of ignition prior to boost, and used bre to automatically retard igntion per psi of boost to about .50 to .70 per psi boost and just a tad more above 10-11psi. I think my original timing could have done some damage based on my new #'s. I think my math was off originally..

Here are my updated, safer ignition tables...

LOW CAM IGNITION:

HIGH CAM IGNITION:

mrdrpep

PM'd you.

I've read somewhere that you can export the log or CSV and re-import it to replay it. From my memory, there's a latency field you can change to slow down the reply but you have to open the log/csv in a text editor... (I need to look this up) What hardware are you using to connect to your PC? Is it the moates usb interface and you're just connecting to the cn2 on the ECU? I need to get set up for this. I've been essentially dialing in mine on the street by monitoring my AF at given RPMS, at given vac and boost levels.

Also,
Send me your .bin's if you don't mind. I really want to study someone else's. I'm also interested to see how you've tuned for anti-lag. There are not many of these out there for BRE for me to compare to.

Thanks!

edit: I sent you a link to my .bin but I'll attach it here: (just figured out how to do this! )

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

pm replied. basically for the anti lag i did this: enabled vss check for vtec activation. set my launch control rpm higher than vtec activation rpm. so my launch control is 5400 rpm, while vtec is like 48**rpm. than on the lo cam map, around that 5400 column i add about 15% fuel if i remember correctly and retard timing significantly. i just played with the fuel and timing settings until i built the boost i wanted. what happens is, once you launch, your vss tells the ecu your moving, therefore when you hit the vtec rpm(earlier than launch rpm) it will switch to the hi cam maps and the lo cam maps where the anti lag is will just be bypassed. once again, this may seem archaic to the obd1 crowd but it works, and sometimes thought and creativity is fun lol. as stated i can build full boost sitting there. i hardly use it to be honest, its pretty hard on components. every one and then ill need it but rarely. sound pretty good too not as good as an engine management with an actual anti lag feature, because in BRE you cannot control the rpm recovery rate in the launch feature, only in the rev limit feature. ive been working on figuring out the programming side of BRE to add the rpm recovery feature into the launch control (great thing about open source software) but im no computer programmer and honestly i was overwhelmed with it.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

i just read your post with your new tables. i did the same thing as far as ignition timing. i figured my b16 is literally bonestock inside, never had the head off of it. so the OEM ignition timing on lo cam side should be perfectly fine. i adjusted slightly around idle to smooth things out. as far as the retarding per psi, i started with .8 than worked my way down. im currently at .6 or .65 i think. all i know is it runs well, pulls hard, its safe, and hasnt exploded in 3 years lol. i dont have my bin in front of me , but your timing values appear close to my IF i remember correctly. ide always sacrifice peak power for reliability. i know when i started alll this and didnt really know what i was doing, i had the timing really really really safe(i think 1.25 per psi. after reading and learing i added more and more. the car instantly woke up and was like 3-5 degrees more advanced at full boost, peak rpm. that equates to a lot of power i would imagine lol. like i said, its still safe and runs well, that was my goal.

as far as datalogging, im running all moates components and yes, into the CN2 port. i love the ostrich 2.0 and live tuning adjustments. i just cannot seem to figure out how to actually save the log file. on top of that, i have my mtx-l wideband pinned into the ecu as well, and i can never get the AF reading in BRE to consistently match my wideband displays. i know how to adjust for it, but it seems like the corrections change as the car warms up and stuff....i honestly have not messed with it in a while, been too busy. some may not like these bugs, but i enjoy the challenge and enjoy figuring things out and using my brain.

mrdrpep

Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it impossible to 'tune' below 1ms? This is something I just read over at PGMFI:

"Most PGM-FI systems have a minimum injector pulsewidth of 1 millisecond, which limits the upper limit of injector size. For example, a 1000cc injector will flood a stock 1.6L Honda engine at idle because 1Ms of pulsewidth is simply way too much fuel. "

So, maybe this explains why I can't get my idle A/F correct, correct? I'm using DSM 450cc injectors and if they have a 1 millisecond minimum, then anything below 1ms is not possible. It may also explain the "hole" I have in vacuum from 19"hg - 29"hg. I have 4 columns on my fuel table that are below 1ms. This just blows me away I did not know this. The problem is... if I put in 1ms (or 1.08-1.09) in those columns, it's going to run way too rich, correct? What am I missing here?

Masterl1nk

That's wrong.
Sometimes you will see a minium pulsewidth of 1ms, that's due injector dead time, so if you are running 1,09ms, actually that means 1ms of dead time and 0.09ms of injected fuel.

mrdrpep

I've never read anything in BRE about injector dead time. The fuel table values are time in milliseconds. Period. 0.22 = 0.22 ms, 1.00 = 1ms, 1.22 = 1.22ms, 2.24 = 2.24ms.

Injector dead time cannot be 'tuned' per say, but compensated for. Injector dead time = amount of time it takes to open from a closed state. Please stop spreading misinformation. This is the second time you've said something in this post that couldn't be further from correct.

What I was referring to about minimum injector pulse is related to the actual limitations of the injector. So what I'm trying to figure out is how the ECU or stock resistors to the fuel injectors are capable to running an injector below 1ms. It appears to be possible because even the stock fuel map has some values below 1ms, granted it was tuned that way for injectors that were 240cc's instead of 450cc's...

mrdrpep

Ok, so things have progressed quite a bit lately. Firstly, my vac/cruising tables were too lean. I've totally redone the tune and I'm getting some really good results. Also, I soldered in the 4pin header (btw in the CN3 port, not CN2) so I can properly datalog. I'm using the moates xtreme hulog. The datalogging capability in BRE has really surprised me. You can log the entire session to file (.csv) and even replay it later. I noticed that the o2/afr reading is not working right. I have a spade terminal on my ECU o2 wire so I can switch between the simulated narrow band, and the 0-5v wideband from my sensor when needed. I switched it over to the wideband (which I believe only reads up to 3.8v which is fine for tuning below 17:1af) and made the adjustments in the BRE datalogger. It did nothing. The AF is just static, doesn't change. So I started looking around and found something interesting in the BRE documentation that I've never heard mentioned... here it is:

It mentions using the SECOND o2 input on the ecu. Uh... wouldn't that be the C08 PIN on the ECU?? I just had mine wired to the first o2 on pin C16. Maybe this is the issue..

btw, you mentioned not being able to log to file from BRE (?). You can do that here:


when you click that it opens a file-save dialog to save the log. Then just click "start" after you're connected to your logging cable and it begins dumping to the file. Once done, hit stop. Then later, you can replay the file by checking "replay" and hitting "start" and it replays the entire session you recorded. This is an awesome feature! I just hope I can get my AFR to pull properly after wiring to the 'second' o2 input on ecu.

EDIT:
Indeed, the wideband output from your wideband sensor (0-5v) needs to be wired to PIN C08, not the factory o2 C16. It's right in the BRE doc:

mrdrpep

Pin C08 on the ECU was the answer, yah!

It's working great and properly data logging. I love the ability to "record" a session and "replay" it. The real time programming feature works very well and will adjust your fuel tables to match your target afr's as you drive around. Or you can analyze the log file and use the autotune feature the same way. This may be old news but it's new "news" to me Love it.

Video I took demonstrating the logging/replay:

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

so sorry for such a delay in getting back to you about bin files. life has been absolutely hectic. here are 2 of my current files. as i stated, they are not perfect, and a constant work in progress, but i love that about it. i have noticed that up here in PA it has gotten very cold at night. i took the car to storage for the winter and the AF were off a little due to the cold weather. they were on the rich side. so that could probably use a little tweaking. im going to download and look at your BINS right now.

1988dxsedan

iTrader: (2)

just in case those attatchments do not show, here are the screen shots of my different maps.

mrdrpep

It's no problem man. I'm interested to see your files. BTW, whatever link or files I sent you have changed quite a bit. I would recommend ignoring them. I started over with the tune and have got it running so much better. A/F ratio's are are near spot on (they change with weather a bit), but I think I've got the o2 working as well. I have my wideband wired to C8 on the ECU and simulated narrowband to C16 and it appears to work great.

What size injectors are you running with this tune?