Catch 22

"I'm 1/2 French and 1/2 German. I guess that means I'm supposed to start a war and then run away."

From a co-worker, who isn't currently proud of her frenchgermanness.

Neo

Oui and yah-vol, baby!

Kamin

hahaha
thats funny.

1gCRX90

Giles, you need to email that quote to one of my new favorite websites, http://www.francestinks.com - lots of funny stuff like that there, such as Donald Rumsfeld's (sp?) quote "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordian."

celica73

I'll do one better...

Check out this ebay auction, I bet you wish you had won it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2161656951

SJR

hmmm. I am trying really hard to not get into a political debate here. however, I am weak - being french-born (now an american citizen) and all and therefore cannot hold my damn mouth.

Besides, I only have several generations of military history in my family. Having had a grand father dying defending his country and another escaping german camps 3 times during WWII, I would appreciate as much respect for my real flag than I have the Old Glory. As touchy as americans are about their flag, I find it interesting that they chose that avenue to try to insult others.

While I am not always proud of my former government's action, I would like to point out that people's memory is usually very short - on both sides of the atlantic. Well, unless remembering is convenient, of course.
While the american side is quick to point out that you all saved our bacon twice in the past, you forget that we did help you out when you were fighting for your independence. you also forget that at the forefront of the attack on Bagdad, last time around, were french foreign legion commandos.
At the same time, the french tend to forget that american has indeed helped us out and saved our collective butts by picking up that little mess over in Viet-Nam. Cuts both ways.
So, before you go around indiscriminently bashing - think. Please. And remember that Tony Blair, the British hero, is fighting an increasingly tough battle with his government and the public opinion, both of which are more and more against the war. Oh, and aren't there americans as well that do not support the war effort?

So my opinion is - if you care about the opinion of a cowardly french person - that Bush is very quick to push for a war that will (and does) distract the public opinion from the current recession. I also think that Chirac needs to get over it and support the americans to go to war IF (big if there) the alleged proof that the US supplied to show "without a doubt" that Saddam has terrorist connections and has weapons of mass destructions is indeed persuasive.

I'll get off my sand box now.
What do you call a french-scottish-american? a cowardly imperialistic drunk in a skirt.

ahem.

so, who's going to Summit FATT next week?

drumsy

Priceless!

Crack Monkey

It's a kilt. Get it right, or I'll stab you with my sgian dubh.

Al, your friendly neighborhood imperialistsic drunk in a KILT

PS - I'm not particularly keen on this war either. Or Bush and his administration.

SJR

sorry - I know it's a Kilt (I am partly scottish), but it sounded better for the joke, poor as it was

Crack Monkey

I know. Should have put a in there.

Geezer

Where I come from it means something different, as in:

"Some drunk fella in a skirt pulled a knife on me, so I KILT him."

fsp31

We can talk about this, but when someone asks about drag radials and track handling "happy lock finger" cometh...

John

My dream girl will be wearing this:

SJR

them ain't froggie panties!

Catch 22

Lighten up french skirt wearers.

And yes, U.S. history would likely be much different if it weren't for the French. Times change, opinions change, memories are lost.

Case in point... People look back on **** Germany now and think "geez, why didn't anybody see that coming and do something about it?"

See my point? Or do I need do spell it out?

Scott, who feels that in the case of tyranical madmen with armies and money... history shows that "better safe than sorry" is a pretty good idea.

War is bad. But so is genocide, flying planes into buildings, bombing places like Pearl Harbor in peacetime, and setting off chemical weapons in the middle of New York City (the last one hasn't happened... yet).

SJR

I'm usually a pretty light-hearted skirt-wearer. It's all that air down there (being french too, I wear underwear under my skirt, you know what kind!) - ahem, but I digress.
Much like any minority, I can only tolerate so much "picking", if you will. And I was hoping a racing forum would be a place where I wouldn't have to hear/worry too much about politics - other than the occasional signature quote...
I snapped. Mea culpa. Sorry. Political debate should be in the member's corner or something.
We can talk politics over a few beers if we ever meet at the track. I'd be curious to know who can drink the most: a NC beer lush, or a french skirt wearer?

RR98ITR

I'm going to disagree here.

Germany never attacked the US, so we shouldn't have gone to war on them.

In fact, England and France declared war on Germany first despite the fact that Germany did nothing to them.

And don't get me started on the Japanese - they were merely trying to expell western colonialism/imperialism from the Pacific and South/East Asia.

And "Appeasement" really wasn't given a fair chance to work despite what we've all been taught. If war is truly the last resort then it has to come after capitulation. Duh! The French were quite happy under German administration - they naturally resent us for all the damage we inflicted on their country during "liberation".

If you do the math, it turns out that the number of people Germany and Japan would likely have murdered had not the Soviet, US, and English warmongers subverted "peace in our time" was greatly exceeded by the number killed as a result of our war against them.

In fact, the Holocaust really didn't get going till after the tide was turning against the Germans - which makes it our fault and our responsibility.

You know, Ghandi wanted to stop the war and negotiate with Hitler - pity his hopes were thwarted by the Genocidal Colonial/Imperialists. There was even a giant pray-in in the Himalayas in '44 or '45. Now that's bravery and conviction!

Scott, who "can't wait" to listen to Noam Chomsky on NPR today....I wish I could laugh, but it's not funny.


Note: if you're not sufficiently familiar with the width of historical revisionism - and the depth of ignorance that supports its consumption - captured in my satire above, please be advised that these are not serious statements and are meant to sound both ridiculous and familiar...I love it when the Peaceniks quote Goering and Goebbels - the irony is that they would have been putty in their hands...

1gCRX90

Oh, we Americans remember Lafayette and the manner in which the French came to our aid. But you'll forgive us, it is a lot easier to recognize the true sentament of the French government and people as it stands today and the past 50 years as opposed to their position 200 years ago.

You'll forgive me if I despise the UN and Mr. Chirac, Mr. Shroeder and the whole lot of them. I think the UN is a joke. EVERY single time there is an armed conflict or intervention, the US carries the brunt of the load with respect to personnel and equipment committed, yet we share the same vote as all of the other members and are the first to be scoffed at, berated and belittled for our positions on foreign matters by our fellow UN member countries.

It is a FACT that France has deep financial interests in the US NOT removing Saddam. In this respect is it ironic that you see all of the morons protesting in the streets against a "war for oil" - if oil had been our purpose we would have taken control of the damn oil fields 12 years ago. The fact is Fina/Elf, the French oil company, has inked deals for Iraqi oil in the northern regions that heavily favor the French and these deals will be null and void, obviously, if the current Iraqi regime is removed. So you could say the French want "No War For Oil" as well, but for the exact opposite reason.

Don't even get started about the Germans or Russians and all of the intelligence pointing towards their corporate level financial involvement with the Iraqi weapons development programs over the past decade. I'd speculate they don't want a war because they don't want to suffer the embarassment of having the dirt on their hands be made public.

My personal bitter disdain for the current French position, and the UN in general, stems partly from the fact that I, too, come from a family with a military background, a lot of which I have traced back over a hundred years. My younger brother narrowly escaped death as a US Army Ranger in the streets of Mogadishu, Solmalia, in October of 1993 fighting for the UN's politics. I'm pretty damn sick and tired, as I know a lot of the "silent majority" of America is, of dragging the heaviest load and having to follow some secong rate policy dictated by the UN in many cases, and as a nation being critisized by other UN members when we want to "do it the right way" and not BS around.

The French, Germans, and the Russians state (in Mr. Chirac's words) that a war with Iraq, in light of the tons of evidence that supports the action, would be "illegitimate." This statement, and their willingness to cower from Resolution 1441's demands, makes the UN itself "illegitimate."

Maybe Mr Rumsfeld should have said "Going to war without the UN is like going deer hunting without your accordian."

Personally I don't think we should wait around for another Sept 11th to decide we can't afford to have the spineless keep us from protecting ourselves.


[Modified by 1gTeg90, 6:18 PM 2/27/2003]


[Modified by 1gTeg90, 6:18 PM 2/27/2003]

1gCRX90

Scott,



You verbalize my thoughts and sentiments even more effectively than I myself am capable of.

Another note, I think it's pretty sad, but I'd bet a lot of the same people you see marching in the streets in protests in the US are the some of the same people who shouted and demanded to know why we couldn't have known about / prevented Sept 11th. If we had been better able to detect the threat before Sept 11th, and we had been able to launch pre-emptive strikes to disable Al-Queda's infrastructure and stop that horrible event before it happened, these same ignorant morons would have been marching in the streets to protest that proactive measure, as well. You see, anti-war is fashionable for that crowd. No amount of evidence will ever convince them. And the majority of the American population could really care less about the vocal minority.

Then again, a lot of those people in the streets probably share the same opinions about the events of Spet 11th that you see expressed in a lot of other places in the world, Europe and Canada included: "The US deserved it."

I say we cut off the $$$ and make 'em all pay back their war debt.

SJR

and they tell ME to lighten up... Richard, please tell me how you REALLY feel - no, no, don't hold anything back now.

I'm not going to argue your points, 90% of them are correct. The only thing I will say is that if war with Iraq truly is about defending yourself, then just do it.
America has never needed nor asked permission to do what it wants (overtly, or covertly) - and I don't see why they should start now.
If america feels threatened by Iraq, go to war. If other countries don't feel threatened by Iraq, then let them not go to war. Just because the US has decided (rightly or not? I am not privy to top secret intelligence) to enter that conflict doesn't mean the rest of the world need to enter it as well.

Scott, about revisionist history - as I recall the winners always write history. History is NEVER unbiased - which makes it damn hard to leatrn from the past!

RR98ITR

I've been able to read ALOT of different slants over the years. I read alot of Left Wing revisionist US History as a hobby in college, but I've never read any of that pro-**** ****. One of my good friends in school was from Japan - he told me that they were taught that we manipulated them into war, and nuked them after they'd already decided to surrender. In free society's there is no such thing as HISTORY, and you can damn near read any version you want - that's why the role of soft core cultural propaganda in mainstream media is so important - that's why all the Hollywood types are clamoring to get face time on the tube right now.

Scott, who says "yes, it IS hard to learn from the past"...

SJR

well, in every society, you are taught one HISTORY in school. Most lemmings will take it for fact without question. Some will read other versions and piece together what they believe to be likely to have been something close to the actual facts, maybe. Or they will pick the version that matches their political/economical beliefs/agenda. Whatever. In the end, we are left with a bunch of versions of the facts, and no one around who actually KNOWS what happened. I believe we cannot learn from the past, unless we learn from personal experience. Which might explain why the same crap keeps happenning over and over... we don't live long enough!

Edit: and Richard, I hope your bitter disdain is indeed only directed at the current french position - and not all its people. Some of us ain't all that bad, really. And we can cook! and drink! and... never mind that.


[Modified by SJR, 1:51 PM 2/27/2003]

1gCRX90

Sorry, it's difficult for me to joke about an issue of this magnitude.

For the record, my animosity is pointed directed at the French and German position, not the French people, for whatever that's worth. I know there are just as many conservative Frenchmen who are unhappy with their government's chosen path as their are conservative Americans who are bitter about the issue.

I'd drink a beer with you at the track. Hell, even a French beer. but only if Mr Chirac does what's right and stops trying to hinder our efforts. Otherwise it'll have to be an American brew!

martini

If you are talking about WWII, Then you must be forgetting about the attack on the US destroyer Greer.

RR98ITR

That's no ****. The English secrecy acts and the long locks is really kind of an insult to all of us. Then again, it's not like all the good and bad will ever just come out in entirety. There will always be missing names, words, lines, minutes, etc. Kind of vexing. Then again, with a happy and fullfilling enough life maybe we don't need to know everthing. That's the secret eh? And yes, if you live long enough you'll see the same stories over and over - maybe that's why some really old people get tired and ready to die - they've just had enough.

Scott, who doesn't have time to do or study everything that interests him...