TimeRacer

I know most of our Hondas "want" 5/10w-30 but because I don't have an oil cooler (other than the stock water cooling system) I'm thinking that I should throw in a heavier oil to deal with the higher temps. Generally I've been using Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic w/ good results and I don't want to switch over to something that has a "break in" period where the engine likes/needs to adapt to the new formula like Redline. So more than likely I'm staying in the Mobil family. I'm thinking that the "ideal" oil would be the 0w-40 as it's weight is JUST above the 40 wt oil spec so it won't be THAT much thicker than the 5w-30 tham I'm running now. Should be able to take the ~295F degrees for HPDE. I also have a larger sump (running a remote oil filter, just didn't invest in the cooler yet) so I'm running 7 qts as well if it helps. Or would the Truck & SUV formula work better? As it's designed for hard duty situations where high heat, high friction come into play. Though it's mid-range 40wt so it's just a physically thicker oil.

Just out of curiosity as well, does anyone know where I can source Mobil 0w-40? I read that pepboys can do it, but you need the product # which I don't have.

mastarolla

Ow-40 oil is a multigrade and only acts as a 40 weight once it comes up to temperature. Ow is more for lubricity at startup and cold flowing temperatures.

Being that its coming up on summer time youll probably be fine running something in the 40 weight end of things as it will not only resist temperatures but it will allow the temps to be transferred decently.

TimeRacer

I fully understand that it's a multigrade oil. Mobil 1 5w-30 has a published CST of 11.3 @ 100 C. While 0w-40 has a CST of 14.3 @ 100 C. Both of which are on the low side of their listed viscosity range but well within it. And a HTHS of 3.09 and 3.6 respectively. So there is the added benifit of being able to go higher in temp while maintaining the correct viscosity. It's not a huge jump though just because the 0w-40 is on the low end. Though if every oil was compatible w/ one another I'd probably go with the German Castrol 0w-30 but I have no idea how it reacts to Mobil 1 and I don't want to have to do a engine flush every time I go HPDE. Which is why I want to stay with Mobil as they state that all their oils are compatible w/ one another.

.RJ

Use anything with a high HTHS value and carries a ACEA3 designation if you can

I used the 'german' castrol 0w30 all last year (the green stuff), oil analysis here: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=889557

TimeRacer

RJ, GC or Redline would probably be my first choices if I were to use another brand than Mobil. I just am slightly (not all too much, but why risk it?) worried about the compatability between the two oils. Unless you know that GC doesn't react at all w/ Mobil's oils... Though I've been getting good results from my Mobil 1 5w-30 tests that I've been sending in as well. The 24 mpg that I got last tank wasn't half bad either.

http://home.comcast.net/~dougiemd/car/oil1.jpg

.RJ

There's nothing to "react" between the oils...

I would stay away from any Mobil 1 with an "energy conservation" rating on the back. The 10w40 (i think euro formula?) appears to be good stuff. I'll stick with my GC Syntec... or maybe Motul 300v

TimeRacer

Well I know that w/ many of the oils you can't trust the oil reports on them until you've flushed them though the engine a few times due to the some of the additive packages clashing w/ one another. Specifically Redline has a very high soft metal counts right after putting it in. It either oxidises the metal or cleans everything that it leaves behind, but in any case the numbers are disturbing when switching over and I don't want to run Redline all the time as Mobil has been getting the job done for half the price. I might have to e-mail blackstone labs and see if they say anything about the two oils (Castrol GC and Mobil 1) having any issues mixing.

descartesfool

You are mistaken about worrying about oil compatibility. Just flush Mobil and add Castrol for example. I used to use Mobil 1 but now I use Castrol 5W40 at the track. It is an ACEA 3 Porsche (and everyone else) approved oil. It is made in Belgium and sold in Canadian Tire stores. Not sure about US. I prefer it to 0W40 Castrol as the less grade range, the better. Check bobistheoilguy and you will see this is an excellent oil. You are much better to worry about the grade than compatibility. Think about the HTHS part rather than other things. When you are on the track, it is absolutely nothing like driving on the road, not even remotely close. I am even considering going to Mobil 1 15W50 as recommended in Graham Bell's book for "highly stressed competition engines", if I can find a good source. Remember that it is only for the idiot North Americans that Honda only recommends 5W30 or 10W30 oils in the Honda engines, since changing oil to a thicker grade for the summer is beyond the capability of comprehension of the average consumer. In all other markets, Honda recommends using much thicker weight oils in the warmer weather.

Here for example on Honda's own Japanese site, they recommend Honda Gold 5W40 full synthetic for the Type R, NSX and S2000 high speed engines.
http://www.honda.co.jp/parts/hop/oil/next02.html

Other evidence of this has been posted before, but here from another forum:
"Owner's Manual Factory Oil Chart from a New Zealand owner of a B18C-equipped G3 Integra:

Straight Grade

SAE 30: 10C to 35C

Multi-Grade

5W30: below -30C to 35C
10W30: -20C to 35C
10W40: -20C to greater than 35C
15W40 & 15W50: -15C to greater than 35C
20W40 & 20W50: -10C to greater than 35C"

Notice that above -10C, recommended oils are 15W40 to 20W50. 5W30 as recommended in North American Honda manuals for all conditions is just plain stupid for the track. Remember to change your oil though if you drive it below -10C!

Castrol 10W60 as used exclusively in BMW M3's is also highly recommended, but very pricey and hard to find.

Make sure your engine is not starved of oil (use a baffled pan if you corner at very high g's) and install an engine oil temperature gauge to keep oil temps well monitored. From Graham Bell's book: "I would only recommend an oil cooler if under hard driving conditions the oil is regularly in excess of 120C (248 F)". In no case run it at or above 130C (266 F).

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> In no case run it at or above 130C (266 F).

</TD></TR></TABLE>

My ITR should have exploded then

It was fine, with nothing other than the stock "cooler"

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here for example on Honda's own Japanese site, they recommend Honda Gold 5W40 full synthetic for the Type R, NSX and S2000 high speed engines.
http://www.honda.co.jp/parts/hop/oil/next02.html</TD></TR></TABLE>

On the same chart, they also recommend 10W30 for all three engines, and 5W30 for the ITR, the same viscosities that are specified in the North American owner's and service manuals for these cars.

I've been using synthetic 10W30 in the NSX, and synthetic 5W30 in the ITR. No problems whatsoever after 10K+ actual track miles in the NSX, and 4K+ actual track miles in the ITR...

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Make sure your engine is not starved of oil (use a baffled pan if you corner at very high g's) and install an engine oil temperature gauge to keep oil temps well monitored. From Graham Bell's book: "I would only recommend an oil cooler if under hard driving conditions the oil is regularly in excess of 120C (248 F)". In no case run it at or above 130C (266 F).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bah, 266F should be the minimum. My car hasn't even hit its stride until the oil gets up to 290.

Chris, concerned, uses Mobil1 15w50 even though the car runs cooler with thinner oil.

p.s. I did peg the Defi gauge at 300 last weekend.

.RJ

Those recommendations are also for street use. Honda recommends a lot of things - I would not use "honda genuine" brake fluid or brakd pads on a track car, or OEM tires, engine oil, MTF, and so forth - you all know where I'm going with that.

Track prep is a whole 'nother mess about oils, suspension parts, brake pads, etc. Use what you want to use at your own risk. You must also consider the speed you're getting around the track and how hard you are pushing the car - if you are not a particularly fast driver, you will be significantly easier on equipment, 3k track miles for one driver may induce more wear than 10k track miles for another driver.

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On the same chart, they also recommend 10W30 for all three engines, and 5W30 for the ITR, the same viscosities that are specified in the North American owner's and service manuals for these cars.

I've been using synthetic 10W30 in the NSX, and synthetic 5W30 in the ITR. No problems whatsoever after 10K+ actual track miles in the NSX, and 4K+ actual track miles in the ITR...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

THERE you are, Ken!

Yeah, on my stock ITR, I ran Mobil1 5w30 and the bearings and rings looked great after 10+ track days, plus a bunch more boosted with 15w50, including a few in 100 degree Texas weather. No oil analysis.

Of course, I've been using Honda MTF too with no issues. *shrug*

I think this proves that it really doesn't matter too much. Lots of people use 5w30. Change it every one in a while.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Those recommendations are also for street use. Honda recommends a lot of things</TD></TR></TABLE>

That depends on the car.

For example, when Honda developed its recommendations for the NSX, they were recommending a lot of specifications that were designed to work on the track more so than on the street. In at least one case - the recommended alignment specs, with a lot of front toe out and rear toe in - the original specs were designed to maximize handling and the ability to induce oversteer to get the car to rotate, at the expense of rapid rear tire wear. That track-friendly but street-unfriendly design decision resulted in class-action litigation by non-enthusiast owners who were unhappy that rear tires only lasted 3-5K miles, and as part of the settlement, Honda revised them to remove some of the rear toe. Of course, if you want to keep those handling characteristics, you can still align to the original spec.

Similarly, the front brake pads on the NSX are the same size and shape as certain Legend and other pads, yet they cost about three times as much. That's because the composition uses a compound that's a lot more aggressive for its anticipated track usage.

I'm sure Honda's recommendations for an Accord are designed to work best for a wide variety of conditions most commonly found for a family car, i.e. used on the street. For the NSX and the ITR - two limited-production all-out sports cars designed for track use as much as the street, if not more so - there's clear evidence that Honda's recommendations took such usage into account. Sure, you can use aftermarket fluids and parts and go even further in that direction; but it is simply not true that Honda's recommendations were based only on the moderate demands of street usage.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> there's clear evidence that Honda's recommendations took such usage into account.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What evidence would that be? There's no variation in recommended alignment settings or engine oil, transmission fluid/brake fluid or service schedule over any other 94-01 integra.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What evidence would that be? There's no variation in recommended alignment settings or engine oil, transmission fluid/brake fluid or service schedule over any other 94-01 integra.</TD></TR></TABLE>

They made a lot of changes for the Integra Type R, and just like the NSX (which shared some of the same designers), they did a lot of their design and testing using the racetrack (at Motegi and elsewhere), which is where they expected that some of the cars would be used. A lot of items were changed from the other Integras for the ITR's intended usage; you're just ignoring all the other changes by limiting your question to a few specific items and ignoring other design differences, such as brake rotors, pads, calipers, suspension, gearing, etc. From http://www.itrca.com/FAQ/general/spottersguide.php:

What sets the Type-R apart from any other Integra?

Engine/Drivetrain:

Revised high flow intake
Revised high flow exhaust
Polished and ported heads and ports
Molybdenum coated piston skirts
62mm throttle body
Lightweight valves
Lighter, stronger flywheel
Redline bumped up to 8400 RPM
Limited slip differential

Body/Chassis/Suspension:

Larger brakes (11.1 inch front, 10.2 inch rear)
Revised lighter ABS system
5 lug Hubs
15x6 Alloy wheels
Bridgestone RE-010 tires
New front air dam
Larger rear spoiler
Short throw transmission with shorter gears
Front shock tower bar
Two rear stabilizer bars
- There is really only one rear stabilizer bar.
The other bar, which was added for the ITR only,
is actually a lower suspension brace - it has no
dynamic suspension interaction other than to help
prevent chassis flex
Stiffened suspension
Little over a 1/2 inch (15mm) lower ride height
Faux Carbon Fiber instrument panel (Center Console in 2000/2001)
Deep bolstered, race-inspired seats
Subtraction of 147 lbs (No sunroof, A/C, sound deadening material)
Only offered in White until 2000 then Yellow and Black were also offered
No protective side moldings

.RJ

Yes I know what was changed on the ITR.

Did you even read what I wrote?

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes I know what was changed on the ITR.

Did you even read what I wrote?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I did. But you're trying to ignore what I wrote and trying to weasel out of the fact that YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN. There is specific evidence that Honda designed its limited production sports cars for race track use as well as street use, to the extent that they worked with tire manufacturers for specific tires, changed the brakes to more aggressive compounds, changed the gearing, recommend different fluids on some cars than on others, etc. You claimed that Honda's design and specifications and recommendations were strictly for moderate street use and THAT'S JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

Chris F

I've seen this one before. It's a rerun.

I think everyone loses interest in the end.

hehehehe

Notably, https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=897274

I think if you two agreed to disagree, that there are multiple viewpoints, that some have burning issues with 5w30 but others don't...

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You claimed that Honda's design and specifications and recommendations were strictly for moderate street use and THAT'S JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

So I should run OEM brake pads and fluid with a race prepped ITR because thats what Honda recommends?

Honda recommendations are great for street use/occasional track use but it is just not going to hold up for someone who is a bit harder on the car on track. I've tried it. It doesnt work (pads, alignment, etc).

descartesfool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

On the same chart, they also recommend 10W30 for all three engines, and 5W30 for the ITR, the same viscosities that are specified in the North American owner's and service manuals for these cars.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

In every owner's manual oil page I have ever seen from outside of North America for a Honda motor they recommend higher viscosity oils for higher temperatures, and that is for street driving. Just because you believe that you should use what your North American manual says rather than figure that they only do that because North Americans cannot come to grips with different oils for different temps does not mean that it is right. Of course Honda recommends 5 and 10W30 oils, but at higher temps (above -10C), they recommend higher viscosities. In Germany, you might drive your street Honda on the Autobahn at much higher speeds than in NA, and there like elsewhere Honda recommends higher viscosity oils for higher temps.

Here is an Aussie's chart for recommended oils for a Honda motor.

Notice for high temperatures you have to switch to a higher viscosity oil. You don't keep sticking with a 5 or 10W30 oil. The German chart I have seen posted is the same. The Honda Japan recommendation is the same. Use higher weight oil for higher ambient temperatures. And it is not the lower number that is important, as in 5W or 10W since that is just a Winter cold cranking rating, that is of no importance whatsoever in track driving. Here is what the lower cranking rating temperatures are:
0W = -35C
5W = -30C
10W= -25C

There is however some importance in the range an oil can have, and the lower the range the better. As in 15W50 is better than 5W50 since they don't have to put in so many additives to extend upper temperature viscosity down a lower cold cranking rating. Since last time I checked no one drives their R compounds below an outdoor temperature of 0C, you don't actually need to use any oil with a low temperature cranking rating. If you really want to know the viscosity of your oil at various temperatures, you have to find detailed specs.

Since I can just go to my local Canadian Tire store and buy Belgian made Castrol Syntec 5W40, that is what I use. The label on the back says ACEA:A3/B3/B4 VW, MB, BMW and Porsche approved.

I am certain any higher grade Mobil or Castrol full synthetic is a very good choice. I just use the higher viscosity (40 or 50) as recommended by Honda around the world for higher temperatures, and ignore their advice for the average North American un-(oil)educated, slow driving consumer. If one wants to save energy by using an energy conserving oil, switch to a car with 0W20, and don't drive on the track.

I go with the world view.

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mastarolla &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">0w-40 oil is a multigrade and only acts as a 40 weight once it comes up to temperature. 0w is more for lubricity at startup and cold flowing temperatures.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is true. Contrary to popular belief, multi-grade oil does not get "thicker" with an increase in temperature. It only loses viscosity more slowly than a single weight oil. In other words, a 5w-30 is a 5-weight oil with the same viscosity as a 30-weight once they each come to running temperature.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just because you believe that you should use what your North American manual says rather than figure that they only do that because North Americans cannot come to grips with different oils for different temps does not mean that it is right.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just because other markets recommend a variety of viscosities - including ones that are recommended here - does not mean that what you dream up as a far-fetched explanation for the differences is true. It has nothing to do with "coming to grips" or "idiots" or "uneducated slow-driving", the terms that you use when you go off on a rant, trying to justify what your imagination tells you, instead of looking at facts. The simple fact is that Honda recommends viscosities like 5W30 and 10W30 in other markets as well as in North America - a fact you continue to deny. I would bet that they don't recommend other viscosities here simply because they're not as widely available as in other markets - but unlike you, I admit that I am guessing about that, just like you are guessing with your rantings about "idiots" and "coming to grips" and "uneducated slow-driving".

Other simple facts that you continue to ignore with your rants is that the manuals are written by Honda's best engineers. Furthermore, they have a vested interest (through warranty coverage as well as customer satisfaction) in providing the best advice to protect the reliability of their automobiles. These are FACTS. Not ranting insults.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course Honda recommends 5 and 10W30 oils, but at higher temps (above -10C), they recommend higher viscosities.</TD></TR></TABLE>

WRONG. Look at your own chart from Australia:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
</TD></TR></TABLE>

They recommend other viscosities IN ADDITION TO 5W30 and 10W30 viscosities, which are also recommended, all the way up to around 100 degrees F.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Notice for high temperatures you have to switch to a higher viscosity oil. You don't keep sticking with a 5 or 10W30 oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

NOT TRUE if you're talking about normal summer temperatures; they recommend 5W30 and 10W30 all the way up to around 100 degrees F. They only recommend switching if the ambient temperature is above 100. So sure, if you're living in Las Vegas, you might want to use a different viscosity. But not in most of North America, where it never goes much over 100 degrees F.

Use whatever viscosity of oil you want, for whatever reasons you want. If you want to follow Honda's recommendations, or not, that's up to you. But don't try to justify it by tossing around insults and ignoring facts. Which is ALL you've done in your posts here.

descartesfool

Hey, I am a North American, so when I think Honda is telling me in my three different Acura manuals to use one weight of oil for almost any condition, I am assuming they think I am included in their target market. I just don't consider myself the average Honda/Acura consumer. Anyone who takes the time to read Bobistheoilguy is not what Honda of North America had in mind as their average consumer. Anyone who drives on the track is not their average consumer. I am following Honda's recommendations, just not the one's in the North American manuals.

I am not sure you have an actual Honda source that says that, but I seriously doubt that Honda's best engineers are writing the owner's manuals. I think they are working on designing cars and Formula 1 engines, or managing the company. Manuals are written by teams of technical writers who may sometimes be engineers. Technical writers I have met for technical companies were never the company's best engineers or designers. They just get technical info from various parts of the company and put it in the manuals. Honda might be different, I never thought about who wrote the owner's manuals.

The way I see that chart from Australia, which is the same as the one I saw from New Zealand and from Germany more or less, the absolute maximum temperature they recommend (for street driving) that you use 5W30 or 10W30 is 35C or 95F. So for the average street driver, you are fine to use those oils in many locations. On the track, the engine is used under extreme conditions, and the engine bay and everything else close to the engine is much hotter than under normal driving conditions. The engine is under great stress from high load and thus I consider using Honda's recommendation from outside of North America of using higher viscosity oils for those higher temps as a wise choice. When you read books on competition engines, they usually recommend using higher weight oils as well. Honda clearly has one set of oil recommendations for North America and another set for the rest of the world. Perhaps there is an explanation as to Honda lists higher viscosity oils in markets outside US for the same engines. I looked at all the information I had available and decided 40 and or 50 weight is the oil for me for track driven cars, and I only use synthetics and only those that have the European ACEA A3 rating for HTHS. I also like the warm and fuzzy feeling when the bottle says "Porsche approved". Some (Shell Helix Ultra 5W40) even say "Ferrari approved. Although I trust there is a reason Ferrari don't use Mobil, and I suspect it is not for lack of quality. Kimi Raikonen perhaps!
See here:http://www.shell-lubricants.co...A.PDF


Howver I don't actaully need that little prancing horse logo on my oil bottle.

ejprimo

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I would stay away from any Mobil 1 with an "energy conservation" rating on the back. </TD></TR></TABLE>

mobil 1 0w-40 is energy conserving.





according to the chart 5w-40 is preffered for the type-r, nsx, and s2000.

if your going to follow your manual word for word then use a 5w-30 "energy conserving" oil. if you only want to follow the viscosity recommendations then id suggest an ACEA A3 5w-30 oil such as bmw hp 5w-30, amsoil 5w-30, redline 5w-30, etc. if you want to follow the japanese manual then id suggest a 5w-40.

ive used castrol syntec 0w-30 at an open track session and thats what i currently use. castrol syntec 5w-40 is now available at some autozones.

mobil 1 truck&suv 5w-40 is a little thicker and has a better additive package than mobil 1 0w-40 and i would recommend both oils as well as the two castrol mentioned above. all four oils are ACEA A3 oils.