travis

As we speak, Kirk Racing is fabricating a set of nascar style door bars for my cage. I don't know the exact design specs of these bars but they will include two forward directing horizontal bars protruding into the door skin and multiple vertical supports. As provided in the ITCS, "The driver's door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed..." This is straightforward, and pretty much all of this stuff is going to come out except for the inner door latch with I may retain if it's not in the way just for convenience. It goes on to say "...and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed."

I'm a little confused by this second part. "Not removed" would suggest to me that you can't cut metal away from the structural panel to make room for the doors, but this is commonly done and indeed I don't see another way. I imagine "modified but not removed" to imply the use of a BFH rather than a saw. I ask because I have access to a very nice plasma cutter next weekend, before the bars arrive, and I would like to cut out the appropriate portion of the door structure to make room for the bars. Does the hole need to be the exact size of the protruding bar? Should I wait to weld in the bars so that I cut the exact amount away (using something other than this nice plasma cutter, which I won't be able to use later)? I guess I've never seen a picture of the inside door skin around these style bars with the door closed. I thought I had this all worked out until I read the rules again. Thanks for any help (or pics).

Geezer

Don't have an answer, but I'm glad you asked the question. I have an '88 CRX Si sitting out in the driveway waiting to go through the conversion to a H4/ITA car, and have been following (and printing off) all your questions and comments about your similar effort. Keep up the good work. You sure are getting me a lot of good advice! If I happen to run across any nuggets of wisdom you haven't already covered, I'll be sure to share. Happy motoring.

travis

Hah, hah! I just did what you're doing, only earlier. There are a few long-time CRX racers in this board and over at IT.com that have cleared things up for me on many occasions. One of the reasons I picked the ITA CRX Si is for the support

BTW, hit me up with any questions you have about your project, since I've already asked most of the questions If I don't have the answer I can point you to who does.

civicrr

Travis, explained to me when I did mine like this. "You can cut out the inner panel as needed to clear the NASCAR bars". My door panel is cut just below the armrest. NASA requires that the stock side impact bar remain in the door. Pretty sure that SCCA does too.

travis

See, this makes sense. Who did you hear this from? Do you have a picture of yours?

Also, SCCA does require that the side impact beam remains in the door unmodified. However, if I remember correctly (I can verify this when I start cutting) the 88 does not have that beam anyway.

civicrr

From NASA, I talked to Jerry himself when asking for clarification. I think I called up to Thunderhill & sweet talked my why to get the SCCA info. NASA requires that you have two bars in the door cavity. I think you only need one with SCCA but I am not sure. I do know that I have seen cars that run in IT with one doorbar at the sill & the second above it & angled into the door cavity. On my car, not sure if I have any pics of the door itself. I can check tomorrow night when I get home. The lower bar is just above the sill. The upper bar is about 10" higher. There are three verticle tubes connecting the two. On the door, I just made a straight cut horizontally for the door panel. I cut out the metal behind about 1" higher than the panel so I didn't have to worry about sharp edges. I left about 1" on the two sides & bottom when I cut that out (metal). I then made relief cuts & rolled them down into the door cavity. Not the prettiest but helped to keep the door from getting too floppy. HTH.

DR

Here is a picture of mine. This is 100% legal

jc836

Travis-I answered this on a different forum-but worth your considering here anyway.
The bars that I got from KIRK as part of the kit-DO NOT intrude into the door cavity at all. They do interfere with the stock cover panel sufficiently that we elected to do a very serious modification to it (both sides of the car actually). The door bars on my car are set at hip height looking at me in the seat and another bar above it by 8" or so with equal size vertical tubes to space them. (picture not currently available).
As I read the GCR/ITCS we CANNOT remove the door beam. However-IF the bars go into the door cavity you may remove the guts of the door as needed. The picture of the one solution is fine in my opinion. My setup allowed me to keep the guts of the door intact. The only part that cannot be on the car with the door closed is the window winder handle-the bars are in the way.
I will suggest that if you cut the inner panel of the door to allow clearance and do not wish to roll the metal over-that you go to a trim shop and buy "windlass" and put it over the bare edges. We did this with the door sills and pinch weld seams -makes it safer to work on and just makes a nice appearance.
BTW: Mark is great to work with-his products are absolutely first rate.
Happy Turkey day


[Modified by jc836, 2:52 PM 11/24/2002]

travis

Thanks for the info everyone, and thanks for the pic DR (nice setup, BTW!). I have now had several people confirm that the "intent" of the rules allow for cutting of sufficient metal to allow for the bars, and that no other metal may be removed (but it can be removed, which I thought was obvious until I read the rules closely).

jc836,

Interesting about the kirk bars. I suppose I should double check first, huh. I'll give them a call tomorrow to make sure this is even an issue. DOH! I just figured...

travis

Just as an update, I spoke with Kirk Racing today and they said that all of their nASScar style door bars to protrude into the cavity of the door and require that the interior skin be cut and the window mechanism and glass be removed. I'm not sure what type of door bars you are using but maybe Kirk considers them more of a regular double door bar that happens to be vertically braced.

BTW, what is this "windlass" stuff you speak of. I was actually planning on covering any bare edges with some of that cheap pep boys door trim stuff. Is that pretty much the same thing?

Anyway, they assured me that these would allow me to remove the glass and everything which is what I wanted, in addition to the added side impact buffer. I'm still going to wait to cut the door until they're welded in and I guess I'll forgo the plasma cutter and do it the old fashioned way

jc836

Travis: The "Windlass" material is similar to the door edge stuff-but much thicker and a deeper channel. You will find that it does not have a smooth surface-sort of textured instead, if that helps you visualize it. What you propose will work too. As to the bars-I'd like to know how it turns out for you (e-mail please). Could be that mine were bent a little different. As for cutting there are several really good things one could use-including a die grinder; a plasma cutter in the right hands (yours) would be faster.

travis

Okay, as a quick update my Kirk nASScar door bar "kit" showed up today and I have some options since it is cut-to-fit. I'm working with two pre-bent horizontal bars are two vertical supports (although I will be ordering a third if there's room). My question is, what is the theory behind running two parallel horizontal bars vs. a horzontal lower bar and an angled upper bar as pictured above? I have enough material to do either. I'm not sure if the added area of coverage with the angled design comes at the expense of more "focused" coverage where it counts. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

sackdz

Well here's ONE solution. Big and blurry so sue me. Notice the doorskin is cut.

johng

Off track.... ~Someone delete the rally car picture. It's a horrible picture and it's not a 'nascar' bar~

Back on track... Personal choice, driver comfort, and safety. The picture you're referring to looks very well done and appears to provide a lot of side impact protection, probably even more than mine since it's higher.

$.02

sackdz

Relax. I put it there to show how closely cuts can be fitted around a door bar, which Travis was talking about.

Tyson

not really, the picture is pretty irrelevant since you can completely remove the door skin if you have nascar doorbars if you wish.

anyway, as for why youd want to angle the upper door beam is just to cover more area for body protection, but still provide more room to egress into the car where you need it. i tihnk youll realize how much more difficult it gets to get into the car when the door bars are raised 6".

jc836

Travis:

If you have not seen the pictures of my KIRK cage-I can send them to you (just e-mail for them). The 'NASCAR' door bars from my KIRK kit do NOT penetrate the door sheetmetal-they are butted up against it. We did what the ITCS says about cutting the molded panel and discovered that the driver's side bars would have destroyed the piece-so Plan B was to put the replacement panel on the lower half and use the stock upper panel-no cuts, scrapes, etc this way.
I am not disagreeing with anyone who has bars that actually go inside the door proper on the DRiver's side only. I only know that mine do not allow for removal of any metal or glass. If yours are bent to go that far in-then by all means do it that way. The rule permits you to remove as much metal - except the impact beam - to allow fitting the bars.
The location in my case take into account where my hips are and upper torso too. Be sure to use 3 vertical pieces as spacers for peace of mind. I have no problem getting in or out of the car with or without the window net.

Knestis

That actually isn't what the rule says (assuming we are still talking IT). We can remove as much metal as is necessary to allow room for the door bars.

Kirk

jc836

Kirk:
I do not disagree with you-please read what I said. I think that the amount removed is supposed to allow for the door to close over the bars-but who am I to argue. I would also suggest that the edges of the opening be covered in windlass for the driver's protection. Just my POV and build experience. Indeed we are talking IT (reference is from ITCS P 18-19, section 9f).

[Modified by jc836, 2:32 PM 1/21/2003]


[Modified by jc836, 2:37 PM 1/21/2003]

Knestis

Gotcha - I read "remove the door skin" and got "remove the entire door skin". We are on the same page.
Ciao,
K

travis

No doubt this is true. When my car is loaded onto the trailer, the trailer fenders prevent opening the driver's door, so I must climb in/out of the window. I've actually gotten quite used to it, so I figure that any door bars can't be any harder. I'll test fit the upper bar at different heights and make sure I can get OUT of the car quickly.

From the responses I have been getting it looks like I'm going to want to angle the upper bar just enough to add impact protection but not interfere with exit from the car. I appreciate everyone's input. The location of the seat, door latch mechanism, and side impact beam will likely dictate how much I can move these around, so I'll let you know what I come up with.

FYI jc836,

Yes, you were nice enough to send me pictures of your cage back when I originally posted this topic and they were very helpful. As a result of your info I reordered my bars from Kirk and specifically requested that they be designed to enter INTO the driver's door, allowing for trimming of the inner door skin and removal of the glass and window mechanism. Indeed, they will do just that.

CRX Lee

I am a firm believer in pushing the door bars as far out into the door as it can go, just putting impact material as far out from my body as I can. My previous ITA door bars touched the flat factory door protection. If nothing else, this lets you remove the weight of the door glass and regulator. The photo from the black car looks really good. The higher you put the upper bar, the more intrusion protection you have. My suggestion is to cut the inner panel soit fits nice after the bars are in place and make sure you leave room for your padding too.

Don't cut too much out of the inner panel as it gets really floppy. On the Prod car, there is no rule restriction so I gutted the sucker and left just the top 2 inches of the inner panel so I could roll some aluminum and close the top window. The door is feather light but will flex and wiggle if you sneeze on it. Not a chance of letting any weight touch it climbing in a window on the trailer. I have a three door bar system with one at rocker level tied to the two above. I cut an inch square hole through the rocker to the outside so I can insert a removable bar made to fit my floor jack. That way I don't have to lift the car up to get a jack under it.