RR98ITR

I didn't know it. That I'd been thinking about it. I wasn't thinking about it. Concerned about more important things I guess. Life and limb. That kind of thing.

And then one day...there was sunshine...and this was better...and that too. Not everything. No. Not everything.

And it just popped out...of my head. Well it didn't pop out. More in...popped in. An idea. In, from where, I have no idea. Perhaps there are trans-dimensional aliens waiting for me in The Zone and they want me to get my kaa done.

Yes. Sure. You think you know what idea it was. And while you'd be right, I would argue that it's just different enough to where you would be Wrong.

"Blah blah blah...technology...blah blah blah...development...blah blah blah...no longer throw away rear grip to balance the car...blah blah blah...rear steering...development...technology...blah blah blah...not lift...blah blah blah...not lift as much...blah blah blah....just barely lift...technology...development...blah blah blah". That's what I was hearing when last I heard it. Hadn't thought about it for months...many months. If asked I would have said I'd had enough. And then BAM!

Just what do you think you're doing when you keep that inside rear down by stiffening the front or softening the rear while you steer that outside rear out as you turn? Are you "throwing away grip"? No? Of course you're not. That's totally Not what you're doing. In fact you argue against the whole idea of throwing away grip at the end of the car that Is working. Yeah!

But in fact you are. It's the same thing. Except for the weight that could have been on the inside front. If you needed it. My kaa always seemed to need it.

What? Here: when you turn that outside rear wheel out you're asking and getting less from it, and consequently from the pair of wheels at that end of the car.

So here's what you're left to argue: "Well, ok, it's the same, but different. Advanced modern development has synergized a beneficial tradeoff amongst the various complexly interrelated parameters...blah blah blah...and you're just a caveman Scott". Or put more technically: asking and getting less is different than asking more and getting less, regardless of the equality of the amount gotten...and you're a cavemen if you can't see the difference. Oh. Does that difference show up in tire temperatures? Help keep those poor rears from overheating and the car oversteering after a few laps?

Scott, who Is a caveman...and I've been in my cave working on my kaa...things I haven't been thinking about are starting to make their way out of my mind...

smokin rubber

grip at any corner is completely useless if the tires never connect the car to the ground. I want the rears to overheat at the same rate as the fronts, keeping the balance throughout the race.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Scott... I wish i could help you solve the mysteries that torment you.

descartesfool

Just had my ITR dyno tuned last week, 301.4 WHP @ 11.2 psi boost on a Mustang Dyno, as I upgraded to a Hondata S300 with a wideband O2 sensor from an S200 so I can do some minor tweaks to it myself and datalog.

So my big worry is: will the rear tires be able to keep up with the fronts? Of course now my power is the same as those BTCC guys with their turbo engines this year, so I might have to look at a few more of their videos to gain some insight. Not tweaking the spring rates just yet. As for the rear tires getting some heat into them compared to the fronts, might need to add AWD for that to happen.

RR98ITR

Mmmmmmmm...that sounds So Good. Three Hundred....and One....point Four....just right. You gonna put flares on the front so you can run 285/30-18's?

Scott, who made Progress in the shop yesterday...and observed again, as ever, that the greatest obstacle to a better idea is the idea you don't question...and with so many of my better ideas being questionable you can see how I get into trouble...

smokin rubber

And that is sort of what I was saying, I have never had a problem with my rear tires going away faster than the fronts. Ever since leaving H4 and stock power levels behind my problem is that I have to manage my front tires. No matter the setup I can not drive "flatout" for the length of the race. Recently I have been trying to leave the front tire abuse for a few laps like a push to pass button, knowing that the car can not keep the ragged pace for long.

RR98ITR

It sounds like you just don't get it. Properly set up front wheel drive racing cars (is it just me or does that not sound right?) have trouble getting enough REAR grip, and so you notice the Professional teams taking steps to increase Rear grip. We must assume that this is because they are getting so much more grip from the front thru advancements in geometry and dampers and of course minimizing understeer by preventing the inside rear from lifting after which the kaa can only understeer more and more as the inside rear lifts higher and higher and weight transfers from inside front to outside front reducing grip and slowing the car down. In fact, what I'm hearing more and more of these days is that the old fashioned rear stiff way of setting up a front wheel drive race car is actually the CAUSE of the problem, and when you set them up THE OPPOSITE way you go so much faster that it's like your chassis just went into Vtak.

Scott, who acknowledges that this stuff is hard to wrap your head around...thank goodness ideas are sticky like gorilla snot or my head would just keep slipping off...

JW racing

Scott I can has my chassis to go into vtak yo? So the Japanese were right all along with the front stiffer vs the rear and staggared stylee. I have never tried as I am stubborn and don't believe that is the answer, but maybe I should actually try and flip my spring rates front to rear and see if they (and you) really were on to something...

At 7:07 min I was going, OK maybe they have a different approach I should try with this setup. At 9 min I was going oh my, that wheel still lifts but the car looks pretty good from a visual standpoint. At 26:50 I got my answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRiPF_Qpcc

rice_classic

So the White EK was the only one with stiff front/soft rear and by 26.5 min mark it was already leading and pulling away the whole time the driver is going on and on about how great it is.

The springs on the EK were 20kg F and 18kg R right? So that's 1120lb/F and 1008lb/R.

That's only a 112 lb split so it's not too extravagant.

Damnit, Now I'm considering putting the 800lb springs on the front of my CRX with the 750's in the rear. Could be fun.

Billy Elliot

I run my springs on my EK with 100n/mm (~570lb/in) front and 70 N/mm (~400lb/in) rear, LX 22mm front bar and ASR 24mm rear bar. From what I was told at my last track day, I was still picking up my inside rear on the track. However, my car is set softer for tarmac rally so I'm driving on a lot bumpier roads and can't go with a super stiff rate.

I haven't really got too much into turning it for the track, but it did still feel real soft, which would probably explain the rear tire still picking up. I figured if I was to start tuning it for the track I would double my rates, which would give me 1140lb/in front and 800lb/in in the rear, which is only 200lb less than the Spoon car on the rear.

RR98ITR

Oh Yes! 26:50...that's what you call a nicely balanced setup. What a treat to get such a clear look at the benefits of the JDM/Modern FWD setup. I get all tingly like a Sterling Moss just thinking about how crossed up my arms could get. Still, I have to say, even these setups are not the ultimate. Untill you're just barely but not quite lifting the inside Front you still haven't maximized the all important grip from the inside rear.

Scott, who has such a hard time telling when people are serious...anybody else have that problem?

ricoisme26

Im relativley new to racing suspension set ups and everywhere i go i can't help but notice the argument weather the rear should be soft or stiff

From my understanding a 20k front 18k rear setup would be a stiffer rear(relative to the front) considering that the front springs support the engine while the rear support much less

There in the rear springs would feel stiffer since they would compress much less since there is very little weight on them.

Again this is just my understanding and im relativley new and do not have much experience with the topic

RED_90TEG

then why did the itr come with a bigger rear sway bar? and handles better then a gsr ?

RR98ITR

Uh, they had to run the bigger bar to detune the chassis because the special Type-R braces at the back of the spare tire well and on the rear subframe made the chassis almost too responsive.

Scott, who would remove them but is afraid...like I'm afraid to cut the tags off mattresses and pillows...

ricoisme26

my understanding is that the sway bar just ties the two sides of the car together decreasing body roll and doesn't stiffen the suspension, like i said im new to this so i may be wrong. If someone knows for sure i would love to hear what they have to say

RR98ITR

Sadly nobody knows how sway bars work. The upside of this is that everybody knows how they work - just ask them.

Scott, who, being serious just momentarily, suggests the search function...you are sitting on the worlds deepest repository of front wheel drive information and don't seem to know it...

ricoisme26

I have been i guess i just don't understand sarcasim.

I have just begun using honda-tech and use to use team-integra there are alot of great articles there and im currently re-reading this one since it has slipped my mind

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/bl...sway-bars.html

RED_90TEG

i drive... i don't just mod... when i added the itr sway bar to my stock em1.. it made a day and night difference...

RED_90TEG

and how about this for some food for thought... maybe the fastest car in h2 class.. http://vimeo.com/41033212
front sway bar is stock rear is 32mm hallow bar..

RED_90TEG

maybe if edik had the same power in that da as the spoon ek in the vid u guys posted.. he'd put that car to shame.. I'm a strong believer ...

RR98ITR

Oh No! That's cheating. That's some kind of perfect robot hero driving an antiquated setup. Real People...firstly and mostly in Japan but now increasingly worldwide...are going even faster with the correct modern setup.

Scott, who thinks if you don't swing that wheel thru at least 240 degrees several times per lap if not per corner...and you're not a robot...then you're just cruising...or your rear sway bar is way too small (just kidding)...

RED_90TEG

not a robot... its just he's not scared to drive... i believe driver has a lot more to do with it then just a spring rate... u can put the best parts and have the best set up and be the slowest around the track...

ricoisme26

understandable but on the same note is it to say that there is no "ideal" suspension set up and rather it can be said it is based off of personal prefrence

RR98ITR

Very perceptive. Yes there is no ideal setup. All setups hold roughly the same potential for speed, and each is unlocked by the preference and mastery of the individual driver. Any dogged adherence to the idea that there are basic physical laws that tilt the scales in one direction or the other is outdated and intolerant.

Scott, who is working to restore his personal preference that my kaa be fully assembled and operational...I think I'm up to like 3 or 4 nights in a row now...

rice_classic

Damn that's funny.