Ryanthegreat1

I think I just heard the time space continuum tear

BongoBennie

What no baby? JK, what a nice sight to see!

BongoBennie

Front suspension issues Im dealing with.....

My set up is

RSX struts with Koni inserts and GC coilovers,
RSX base knuckles
These https://www.kingmotorsports.com/c-28...aspx?pagenum=3

First issue is the ball joint bolt is too short by about 1/8 inch (can't install cotter pin)

Any tips?
Second concern is the high rate of positive camber at ride height, I haven't installed camber bolts yet but I'm worried that two might not be enough.

Ryanthegreat1

That is an odd problem. The McPherson strut suspension has effectively zero chamber change as the suspension travels. You get a tiny amount of change with the arc of the lower control arm but nearly nothing.

Here is my alignment with Insight struts with 04 Civic knuckles. Should be the same as the base RSX knuckle.



As for the ball joint, you had some sleeves machined right? Sounds like some thickness needs to be removed. I made my adapter sleeves and have plenty of room for the cotter pin with the Insight ball joint nuts.

Here is a picture with the wrong nut. Still would have allowed the cotter pin but the Insight nut has a huge flange on it capturing my sleeve 100% in the lower arm.

BongoBennie

Struts are also RSX, I will slot the bottom hole and get the close, then adjust with a camber bolt. Ball joint insert is for a USDM knuckle to fit type R a-arm, maybe type s bolt is longer? It also came with a washer to hold itself in but the Insight nut seemed better. Will be back on the car this week to look at options.

Ryanthegreat1

Hmm something is odd with your setup. That Insight on One Take had RSX struts and did not appear to have alignment issues. Did you get the center of the RSX strut in the center of the strut tower?

BongoBennie

The top mounts are actually in a hair from center, I will redrill these soon and tilt the camber all the way in and maybe set the caster back a hair as long as they are equal I can adjust from there, I want to figure a few things out first, in my 25 years of messing with Hondas, I have always built with stock spec parts suspension wise, never have I had to make suspension decisions other than what shock to buy, also there is no tried and true way to do an Insight (which is why I like them). Any caster tips as well are appreciated.

As far as the ball joint goes, I don't see how these even fit the stock RSX arm, the tapered part of the bolt has a way to go, also wonder if there is a difference within the years of RSX. Im going to call King Motorsorts on Monday but a trip to the machine shop should do the trick.


I also bought these for the tie rods which are different for EP3 and Base RSX (?) which makes me think there may be differences in the ball joints taper as well


https://amrengineering.com/product/a...d-end-adapter/ https://amrengineering.com/product/a...d-end-adapter/

BongoBennie

Screen shots from the video, one could argue he has 0deg camber but has in fact slotted the mounts.

Ryanthegreat1

Cut the bottom off of that sleeve and countersink it into the Insight control arm. That will get you what you need. My adapter sleeve is counter sunk.

Looks like the 02-04 used a 12mm nut on the ball joint and the 05+ used a 14mm nut. You might be onto something. But seeing that you have the Insight ball joint nut on the RSX joint it is the smaller 12mm. The Base and Type S used the same lower control arm part numbers so I doubt the taper is different between them.

BongoBennie

Took arms off and headed to machine shop tomorrow, you you have a thickness measurement? Were you able to use the Insight flanged castle nut ? I called KingMS and they said it should fit but I say no way.

Ryanthegreat1

Looks like I did 0.760" total height with a 0.150" lip height.

MakDiesel

For you that have done it, how were you able to remove the stock Insight ball joint from the LCA without scarring up the soft aluminum?

Ryanthegreat1

Milling machine. About the only way to do it.

Cut the lip off the bottom that retains the cap and then bore out the ball socket for an adapter sleeve.

MakDiesel

Hm...let me rephrase. What options do those without milling machines have to address this task? I've got a 7" angle grinder with cutoff wheels and grinding discs. Make the surfaces flat while removing as little material as possible? If this sounds ill-advised I will farm out the milling work. I don't have any relationships with machine shops where I live, I'm one of those DIY with sheer force of will guys. Low budget, high stubbornness, mild genius on occasion.

Ryanthegreat1

Maybe, you would be smarter than me to pull it off. Need close tolerances to make a press fit sleeve and again close tolerances on the taper in the sleeve to match the ball joint taper. It might be possible but not something I would recommend or do.

You could probably get the ball joint out of the Insight lower arm with just a grinder but beyond that precision is needed.

You could go the other way, hammer/press the steel insert out of the Insight knuckle and weld it into the Civic/RSX knuckle. But that has it's own challenges. And from what I have seen you can't run a cotter pin on the castle nut. Not ideal at all.

Ryanthegreat1

Maybe, you would be smarter than me to pull it off. Need close tolerances to make a press fit sleeve and again close tolerances on the taper in the sleeve to match the ball joint taper. It might be possible but not something I would recommend or do.

You could probably get the ball joint out of the Insight lower arm with just a grinder but beyond that precision is needed.

You could go the other way, hammer/press the steel insert out of the Insight knuckle and weld it into the Civic/RSX knuckle. But that has it's own challenges. And from what I have seen you can't run a cotter pin on the castle nut. Not ideal at all.

MakDiesel

I never assume I'm smarter, which says a lot about my smartness lol.

What size washer/insert is needed if using EP3/RSX knuckles? I've MIG welded a total of 8 minutes in my life but it may beat marring up a set of costly aluminum LCA. Come to think of it, I've needed a welder for 15 years or so. Instant justification.

Ryanthegreat1

I am not sure. There are a few pictures of this method out there. I did not book mark any of them as they were super sketchy. Welding to a cast part AND cutting the safety feature off the nut. No thank you, crossed that method off my list early.

MakDiesel

3 questions: what would prevent one from mating a GSR or appropriate inboard axle to a stock Insight outboard axle to preserve the stock knuckle and do away with all the spindle modification? The reason I ask is my swap will have modest goals at first (Accord engine, 160hp) and daily driven so big brakes aren't as important at legal speeds. GC makes a coilover for stock Insight struts if the added engine weight is a concern. Shoot my ideas down without mercy lol.

Walking back, could the immobilizer issue be avoided by buying the ECU, steering ignition, and key together from the same donor car? Specifically for stock ECU applications, Kpro has an immobilizer delete function.

Third, (Ryanthegreat1) how did you get around using a TSX engine with a stock ECU considering all K24A2s are drive by wire (DBW)? I've read about using Accord/RSX+adapter cable throttle bodies but only with Kpro applications. Correct me if I've missed something in an earlier post.

Ryanthegreat1

Integra half shafts are the same size as the smaller K series stuff. 27 spline inner, 26 spline outer. The bigger K series stuff is 28 spline outer. The Insight half shafts are absolutely tiny. I don't think anything in else in the Honda line up uses something so small. So long story short I don't think you can swap the Insight outer to something that would fit the K series transmission.

Well.... The key cylinder in the Insight again is unique. You can swap the immobilizer antenna that is around the key cylinder. But that does not solve that the key for your swap has a different cut to it. I think the K series Accords were all sidewinder keys?

If you wanted Honda to cut and program you new keys you would want to swap the immobilizer antenna from your donor car and wire it in correctly. 100% worth having that immobilizer working correctly.

Stock TSX ECU. It is DBW and I am still running the DBW. The accelerator pedal position sensor on the TSX lives in the engine bay and still has a wire throttle cable from the pedal to the sensor. The control relay and power supply for the throttle body live in the passenger foot well just like on a TSX. Nearly all of the DBW wiring is on the engine wire harness. Only had to graft the control relay into the Insight.

MakDiesel

Thank you, very informative.

To clarify, I meant only swap the outer CV joint that bolts to the hub with the stock Insight joint, the rest would be K20 half shaft, and then either GSR or EP3 axles, whichever fit after measuring. I'd assume even the joints are too small to graft but I don't have both samples in front of me.

I'm not as familiar with key differences or generations as this is the first car I've ever owned with an immobilizer. Previously, new keys were $1.07 at Walmart for my '97, '89, and '85. If only. If I bought the entire ignition with tumblers intact, key, and ECU that would work but then my doors and trunk would require the original Insight key. Kind of annoying but the cheapest option (not a fan of the stealership).

Bravo to you for keeping that factory, most complain of the characteristics of DBW on stock the TSX and swap to cable. If I can find a K24a2 for a good price the odds are the module and accessories to run the factory DBW will be absent. Finding those items will take some effort. We'll see.

BongoBennie

You will spend more on the K20 inner to Insight outer axles vs K20 inner to EM2/EP3/RSX outer including the cost of the knuckle. Pretty sure the insight is the smallest Honda CV joint Ive ever seen, Insight axles are known to break even under the stock HP

MakDiesel

Ah, figured it was a long shot given it's meager output but I'll scratch it off the possibilities.

Note: I have heard of stock Insight axles breaking but only up north from corrosion under the rubber damper on the shaft.

Ryanthegreat1

Yeah, not a huge fan of the DBW but I wanted to keep the stock ECU and have cruise control.

Maybe the Hondata reflash in my future to improve the DBW response. It is fine for daily driving stuff but when you stab the throttle there is a very noticeable delay. Especially annoying on the 2/3 up shift. You can have the shift completed clutch all the way out, throttle the the floor and you are just waiting for the DBW to respond and open the throttle plate.

Ryanthegreat1

Now that the summer weather has arrived it is a great time for me to find out that I missed the AC On input to the ECU. Not so much missed, more like TSX ECU does not have an AC On input, it is all requested by CAN bus.

I kind of think this is true on most of the K series ECUs. All the documentation I am finding is run Hondata and change one of the VTEC sensor pins to AC On input.

Time to do some CAN bus probing again.