miketegra

The timing belt was so easy to do on my B18C1, that I decided to help a friend do the timing belt on her '97 prelude (H22a I guess - automatic, not SH).
The Problem: Car has vibrations at idle and is losing major power throughout the rev band.

During the install, the only real issue we had was with the Helm's manuals description of installing the balancer shaft. We used the "6 x 100mm bolt through the maint. hole" to hold the rear balancer shaft in position for installing the belt. Is there a way to do this wrong?
Would the balancer being out of whack be responsible for the power loss? (I could certainly see how it could cause the vibration).

I did come across this quote from this post: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=520499

You have to be carefull when puting the balance shaft belt on. One of the shafts (I believe it's the rear one... someone please correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't ballance at the mark but once every 3rd revolution. You you can check this if you take the belt off and match the mark on the balance shaft gear at it's top position. When you let go of it, it should not want to "float" away from the top mark. If it does, either forward or backward, turn it 360 degrees and try it again. You'll know what I mean when you try it.
Anyway, that could be causing your vibrations... HTH

Dan P.


Any help greatly appreciated - feel free to IM me !

-=Mike=-




Modified by miketegra at 3:32 PM 6/25/2003

Jonathan_ED3

It would cause bad vibrations, but probably not any power loss.

I've been trying for weeks now to get my balance shafts lined up right.....no luck.

Sephro

It could be that the front one is off by a few teeth or the rear is off by 180degrees. If you line the front one up put the belt on then put tension on it with the tensioner the front pulley will no longer be lined up. It's hard to describe. But it's like when tension is put on the belt it causes the pulley to spin towards the tensioner. Hope I am making some sense. Also did you check the timing? It could be your timing is off now...

Jonathan_ED3

I know exactly what you mean about it not being lined up after you put tension on it.

What I've been trying to figure out for WEEKS is this:

Do you want the front and the rear lined up when the belt is fully tight (which is tricky to get done, but can be done), or do you line them up, then tighten the belt, at which point they're not lined up anymore but were before you put the belt on?

I've never gotten a straight answer and I've been wondering for a while.

Mover

Losing major power ? Check that the cams and crank are aligned again just in case.

miketegra

Thanks for the help folks - but keep them ideas coming. We are ready to tear it back apart, but I'd really like to know what we need to do or what to look for exactly. Will be sure to check the crank and cam positions, but I'm wondering if maybe we somehow got the timing belt off a tooth!?!?
We marked the old timing belt before we took it off and counted the teeth between the top of each cam (while at TDC). We made sure there was the same number of teeth between them on the new one......argh !

-=Mike=-

Jonathan_ED3

I heard that wasn't a very accurate way to do a timing belt.

After you had the teeth counted to the amount you thought it should be, did you double check to make sure everything was at exact TDC?

miketegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hot_EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I heard that wasn't a very accurate way to do a timing belt.

After you had the teeth counted to the amount you thought it should be, did you double check to make sure everything was at exact TDC?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, I was on the bottom, and my partner was on the top, so all I can say is that the crankshaft was DEFINITELY at TDC, but I cannot be 100% sure that the cams were. It's looking alot like we are going to have to tear it down and quadruple check that its all lined up......can I get an argh argh ?

-=Mike=-

Sephro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hot_EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know exactly what you mean about it not being lined up after you put tension on it.

What I've been trying to figure out for WEEKS is this:

Do you want the front and the rear lined up when the belt is fully tight (which is tricky to get done, but can be done), or do you line them up, then tighten the belt, at which point they're not lined up anymore but were before you put the belt on?

I've never gotten a straight answer and I've been wondering for a while.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe you want them to be lined up after the fact. All you have to do is use that service hole in the back to steady the rear one then line it up to the line apply the tension. then count the teeth back to the line. Take off the tension and line it up X amount of teeth towards the front. This way when you apply the tension it will turn the pulley towards the mark. Thus having it all lined up with tension.

BTW mine is off so I will be fixing it soon. This is the way that made sense in my head. I don't see why it would work.

Sephro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by miketegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, I was on the bottom, and my partner was on the top, so all I can say is that the crankshaft was DEFINITELY at TDC, but I cannot be 100% sure that the cams were. It's looking alot like we are going to have to tear it down and quadruple check that its all lined up......can I get an argh argh ?

-=Mike=-</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you not have the pins in to keep the cams at TDC???

Jonathan_ED3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sephro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did you not have the pins in to keep the cams at TDC???</TD></TR></TABLE>

what pins?

I've never heard of pins.

Is there a way to keep them at TDC? If so, do share...i've always done it by sight.

miketegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hot_EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

what pins?

I've never heard of pins.

Is there a way to keep them at TDC? If so, do share...i've always done it by sight.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What he said......

poison

Neither have i.

Mover

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sephro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did you not have the pins in to keep the cams at TDC???</TD></TR></TABLE>

H22s don't use pins

miketegra

Hey all !
When we took it apart, we found that the timing belt crank pulley was indeed one tooth off. Got it straightened out and all back together. Took it for a test drive, and it blew up...........nah, just kidding. It's running better than it was before we took it apart the first time.
THANKS to all of you for your help......you guys and gals are ******* great !
PS - Big thanks to Dan P for advice on how to get the rear balancer shaft in the right position, no thanks to the Helms manual on that

Jonathan_ED3

glad you got it working good

is it hard to tell if the CP is off a tooth? It's kind of hard for me to see the CP all that clearly with my Hybrid.

I've got it almost exactly lined up with the arrow, but is there anyway it could be just one tooth off?

All this talk is making me worried

Sephro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mover &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

H22s don't use pins</TD></TR></TABLE>

Really?? So only the H23's have those holes behind the cam pulleys where you can put the pins in to keep both at TDC??

miketegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hot_EH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">glad you got it working good

is it hard to tell if the CP is off a tooth? It's kind of hard for me to see the CP all that clearly with my Hybrid.

I've got it almost exactly lined up with the arrow, but is there anyway it could be just one tooth off?

All this talk is making me worried
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, technically, there is no mark on the Crank pulley, the mark is on the balance shaft drive pulley (the one behind the crank pulley)...

If its off a tooth, the arrow on the balance shaft DRIVE pulley (the one behind the crank pulley) WON't line up with the arrow on the block. In our first attempt, the arrow on the pulley was about 1/4 inch out of alignment with the arrow on the block.
Dan_P had some good advice on lining up the REAR balance shaft pulley, so perhaps you could IM him.....

Good luck, and let me know if I can offer any more advice.......

-=Mike=-

Sephro

When I did mine I didn't use anything on the crank pulley or the one behind it. I used the mark on the flywheel. I know some aftermarket flywheel's don't have the mark (I don't know why ) but IIRC that's the only way to ensure you have cyl 1 at TDC

miketegra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sephro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I did mine I didn't use anything on the crank pulley or the one behind it. I used the mark on the flywheel. I know some aftermarket flywheel's don't have the mark (I don't know why ) but IIRC that's the only way to ensure you have cyl 1 at TDC</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, it's a pain in the ***, but it seems to me that looking at the position of the crank will be more accurate than looking at the flywheel. Reason is: 1. it's easy to not look correctly at the relative positions of the pointer and mark on the flywheel since its way down in there and you have to look through the viewing hole (at least thats how it was on the automatic when looking at the driveplate). 2. The circumfrence (sp?) on the flywheel is much bigger than that of the pulley...so if the mark on the flywheel was off just a little bit from the mark on the block, that would translate to the mark on the balance shaft drive pulley being a good bit further off from it's corresponding mark on the block...at least I think so anyway.
All I know is that when we had both the cams at TDC and the mark on the balance shaft drive pulley was aligned with the mark on the block, I knew we were ALL SET - no way anything could be off in that state.....

Jonathan_ED3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by miketegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, technically, there is no mark on the Crank pulley, the mark is on the balance shaft drive pulley (the one behind the crank pulley)...

If its off a tooth, the arrow on the balance shaft DRIVE pulley (the one behind the crank pulley) WON't line up with the arrow on the block. In our first attempt, the arrow on the pulley was about 1/4 inch out of alignment with the arrow on the block.
Dan_P had some good advice on lining up the REAR balance shaft pulley, so perhaps you could IM him.....

Good luck, and let me know if I can offer any more advice.......

-=Mike=-</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah, technically you're right. I couldn't remember the proper word/terminology for what it's on.

Well, mine is pretty much lined up. I'd say it might be off 1-2mm from being directly lined up with the arrow.

It's hard to tell though....because depending on what angle I'm looking at it from, it looks like it's PERFECTLY lined up, or just very very slightly off.

I think it's as good as I can get it though, because i assume it being off a tooth would put it a good 1/8" away from the marks lining up.

I'm just paranoid about my car...I'm so scared something is always screwed up. haha

I did the balance shaft yesterday. Got those bad boys lined up

fastludeh22

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sephro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did you not have the pins in to keep the cams at TDC???</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes h22's do have pins in teh cams, they go though the cam holders and into the cams. they are not perfest though, you must move the cams maybe 1 mm to get the teeth to line up w/the belt.

the mark on the crank is where the the key is. it should line up w/the arrow on the oil pump.

Mover

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fastludeh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yes h22's do have pins in teh cams, they go though the cam holders and into the cams. they are not perfest though, you must move the cams maybe 1 mm to get the teeth to line up w/the belt. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, you're right (over piston #2). I've never used them and the pages I have copied from the Helms doesn't mention them for the H22s either. I see them being mentioned for non-VTECS only (just behind the cam pulleys)

Mover

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fastludeh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
yes h22's do have pins in teh cams, they go though the cam holders and into the cams. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I also checked with someone who has a Chiltons. On page 3-91, bottom right corner they say to use the punches on Ludes without VTEC only ... go figure..




Modified by Mover at 8:34 PM 6/26/2003

Mover

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sephro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It could be that the front one is off by a few teeth or the rear is off by 180degrees. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If a screwdriver or bolt fits in the hole at the back, it can't be 180 degrees off because of the positioning of the hole on the internal balance shaft.