carfanat1c

OK,

Thanks for joining me on this subject first of all.

I have been dealing with cars my whole life, I'm not a full time mechanic but I am not an amateur either. I've built a few engines and fixed quite a few

CAR: 1999 Prelude Base with 1998 JDM H22 5spd

THE LOWDOWN:

Bought a Prelude for a ridiculous price---ran like total ***---blown head gasket and the head sounded horrible ticky/knocky. Figured Head decked, head gasket, Valve Adjustment maybe LMA'S and back in business.... wrong.

I did all the above mentioned work including the LMA's only to find my head still has a knocking sound, sounds like valves. IT IS NOT A TICK, AND IT IS NOT A ROD, MAIN, OR ANYTHING IN THE BLOCK--- IT IS IN THE HEAD. I took an auto stethoscope and it is def louder of a knock on the exhaust side of the head. The block and oil pan sounds BEAUTIFUL.

The head looked pretty decent underneath, I expected maybe a bent valve because it had a BRAND NEW timing belt and tensioner on it and it ran so loud... kinda figured somebody messed up and ditched the car for cheap. None of the valves were bent... not even a little* The cams and rockers had VERY minor wear, compared to most they were nice.

So at this point I think its either massively worn valve guides due to overheating (blown head gasket previously) or tons of valves sticking. I plan to run a vacuum guage on it tonight to see if I can find anything.

And I am totally kicking myself in the *** for not just getting a valve job done from the get-go because the thing runs awesome aside from the minor knocky noise at idle. Sound either disappears or is overshadowed at 2k+ rpms. I really just don't want to rip it apart again.

I have read numerous threads on this problem with this engine, but no one ever comes back to explain the fix. Anyone been through this?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Sparksman

It may be a bent valve, have you done a compression leak down to see? If the valve isnt seating right it won seal correctly and will leak. Once you know what cylinder it is, you will know what valves to be looking at.

I would still double check your valve lash at least one more time before tearing back into it.

Anyhow good luck!

carfanat1c

Thanks for the support!

BUT, IT is def not the valve adjustment, I've checked it 3 times IT IS ON - IT IS NOT A TICK. Also it wasn't a bent valve, I have had the head off and used a depth mic to make sure all the valves were bottoming out.

That's why I think its the guides/stems of the valve - really this is the only place I think the noise could be coming from and the only place I really didn't "check"

Sparksman

Well you're just going to have to suck it up and buy some new stems and guides then. There only $100 bucks for both lol. Would have been well worth it to not be cheap the first time around.

I still say do a compression leak down if you havent, that just good to know regardless of anything your doing. Be shitty to find out you need to pull again to rebuild the bottom end because you set of rings is shot...

If your pretty sure you know what the problem is fix it, nobody knows your engine as well as you. Anything online is more or less between a shot in the dark and a educated guess at what your particular problem/s may be. Only one true way to know and thats taking it all apart.

Anyhow hope you figure it out, best of luck.

carfanat1c

Yea, I usually have good luck and I really didn't know oem valves and guides were that cheap. But yea I know if I want the noise gone I'm gonna hafts to just rip it apart again, just mainly looking for someone to say "yes I have had that exact problem and it was valves/guides". Thanks though, and hindsight is a mothafucker...

Sparksman

I bought Super-Tech valve stems and guides for $100 bucks. Not sure about how much oem ones are right off the bat, Ive never heard any problems about Super-Tech on stock valves.

Its from ebay, but it doesnt really matter where you buy the part it the parts you buy. Ive bought many name brand stuff off of ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERTECH-BRONZE-VALVE-GUIDES-Stem-Seals-Civic-Si-Integra-GSR-B18C-B16A-H22A-/261033981849?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc6d67799&vxp=mtr

motoxxxman

oem valves and guides are definitely not that cheap. and notice when he says "stems" he's not referring to valves, but to seals.

if you want quality stuff, expect to pay around $50 to buy the guides, and another $200-ish to have them installed and reamed to spec. and valves will run another $200-$300 depending on what brand you get.

I use supertech springs in my car and they're awesome, but I do not trust supertech valves or supertech guides. I have seen way too many negative things happen from using them.

for oem parts: www.hondaautomotiveparts.com

edit: oem guides are $7.67 each. that's $122 just to buy the guides.
oem intake valves are $18.94 each, and oem exhaust valves are $28.60 each. that's $380.32 just to buy new oem valves.

for aftermarket valve guides, I recommend SealedPower. for valves: crower, ferrea, oem, or really any name brand.

Discosteak

iTrader: (1)

Take a video of the noise so we know your not chasing a normal noise. H22 heads aren't the quietest.

motoxxxman

x2
especially with aftermarket valve springs. crazy stiff springs make the engine damn near sound like a diesel engine due to the extremely loud sound of the valves closing, even at idle, even with stock cams. worn valve seats make the sound even louder due to the larger contact surface area and enhanced "clapping" sound.

carfanat1c

Thanks! I will take a video this evening and post it up.

And yea I was referring to the stem of the valve not the seal. Basically making clearance between the valve and guide thus making noise.

And Yes it could def be considered a "clapping" noise, it is not a tick but a deeper tone.
Also, I'm pretty positive all the valvetrain is completely stock and original, and have no idea on the mileage.

And also my machinist checked the rest of the head "visually" and seen nothing out of the norm. But also I have had other H22 engines and they never had THIS sound.

Black R

Subscribing because I also have been hearing a funny noise from the exhaust cam side of the head on my recent rebuild.

carfanat1c

Sweet, hopefully we can figure this out and leave a thread that actually explains the culprit and fix.

And yea it is definitely a lot more noticeable on the exhaust side, put a stethoscope to your exhaust manifold/header and prepare to be amazed.

Sparksman

If your not sure of the miles, then what weight oil u have in it? Try bumping up to a heavier oil and see if that quiets things down.

carfanat1c

I did an oil change when I did the previous work, 5w 30. I have checked the oil after about 30 min runtime and is clean and free of coolant or metal.

The engine previously wasn't cared for well, it had the dreaded burnt oil smell and the whole inside of the head looked like copper because it was stained so bad.

I could put heavier weight oil in it but i'm not really trying to hide the sound I just want it to go away and although it isn't loud it seems prominent enough that a heavier oil wouldn't cure it. Plus you lose revability of the motor at that point. I remember when I put a heavier weight oil in my GSR it was night and day difference in how quickly the motor responded, I instantly changed it back. I know an H engine wouldn't be AS noticable as that but I would like to stick with what is recommended.

AND I'm going to add this, it is almost empty on fuel and it has those weird 4 prong spark plugs so I though detonation/preignition but sounds too "physical" or "mechanical" to be that. I'm going to fuel it up with premium and get some stock NGK plugs tonight before the vacuum tests.

One other theory I had... supposedly the JDM H has a little higher compression due to different pistons so I thought could spark plugs be different and hittin the pistons but I see no physical evidence on the plug or piston.

Discosteak

iTrader: (1)

get rid of the bosch +4 plugs. Ive rarely seen a Honda run correctly with those installed.

Sparksman

Im my honest opinion your running too thin of a oil for such a high milage engine. If the engine was rebuilt or still low miles then you can run 5w. But the noise may be a result of lack of lubrication to the head. A thicker oil would increase oil pressure and makes older engines run better. If it makes the noise go away then its not "covering it up" its adressing a lubrication issue.

It may not be the problem, but is something to consider.

Don't forget cars ran just fine for a hundred years with basic oil before all this fancy **** came out. Just because its hevier doesn't mean it will make it a ticking time bomb. Hell it may already be, nobody knows.

As far as piston to plug contact, I wouldn't worry. The recess in the pistons top is all that's different.

You should be happy it works at all, let alone worrying about how well its lubed at 8+K. That engine prob shouldn't be seeing that high of rpm's often until rebuilt.

Discosteak

iTrader: (1)

where did you see mileage? I don't see it listed.

Sparksman

I don't believe the OP even knows, he bought a previously swapped car. Could have crazy miles on it, could have hardly any. Could be a fresh swap, or one that somone beat the **** out of for a few years. Without papers on the engines install date or odometer reading when installed we will never know.

That being said, I was kinda just taking a educated guess. If the Op believes the stems and guides are worn, that's not common for a fresh swapped engine. Which makes me believe its got to be up there in miles. Or somone did just rally the car tell something happened and then sold for cheap because they didn't want to bother fixing.

Discosteak

iTrader: (1)

Im holding diagnosis until i see the video, every H22 I've seen has been pretty noisy. I had a buddy that had one with the noisiest, nastiest sounding head on earth. It ran like a raped ape. Eventually it threw a rod lol.

carfanat1c

I appreciate both of you guys for even taking the time to discuss and help. Thanks!

Also, I will say that when I bought the car I thought it had 213,000 miles on the engine - that is what is on the chassis/title. But when I cleaned and tore apart the poor abused engine I noticed it was a H22A and that the head was a 97, the car is a 99 so thats when I learned the engine had been replaced.

The head was nastly looking but the block/cylinder walls looked great. Also I found the Honda part bags and a receipt for a tensioner/wp/tb in the trunk of the car dated April of last year so I figured that may have been when the engine was swapped.

It does run great other than this noise -ultra responsive-pumping air like it should.

And also Sparksman I did have to replace the head gasket due to the engine overheating ..the previous owner told me it did because of a faulty radiator - that was also new(ish) and replaced when I bought the car from him. THAT is primarily why I think valve/guide problem maybe the heat caused friction which caused wear. And if you seen the condition of this car you would know it was not rallied - it is in hella nice shape.

Also, Its good to disclose that I took the Valve Cover off last night, unhooked the fuel and spark and turned that bitch over for about 30 seconds and watched every rocker being supplied with oil consistently, the plugs were out and it made NO weird noises at all during that.

Thanks Again - and I will have the video uploaded tonight.

motoxxxman

if you have reason to believe it's a low mileage engine, stick with 5w-30. if you have any doubts about mileage, use 10w-30 or 10w-40 in summer and 10w-30 in winter.

Sparksman; older domestic engines used heavier oil because they were American made and were sloppy and inconsistent and used large clearances in all moving parts. they NEEDED the heavier oil to maintain oil pressure. and remember, those motors usually only lasted to 100k miles before needing a major overhaul.
modern engines are designed with much better metals and much tighter tolerances and more consistent operation and expansions, and actually require lower viscosity oils [as long as the tolerances are still tight].

using thicker oil in a tight tolerance motor will reduce lubrication, because it increases oil pressure too much, causing the oil pump relief valve to open prematurely and stay open for too long and too far allowing too much oil to bypass the entire engine.
think of it this way: fill your mouth with water, grab a straw, and spew that water out the straw as hard as you can. imagine the flow rate of the water through the straw. now grab some super heavy thick pancake syrup, fill your mouth, and spew it through the straw as hard as you can again. it will flow at a much much lower volumetric rate, even though it's under the exact same pressure as the water was.

Sparksman

Im not about to debate engine oils, that topic has been covered numerous times. I never said any engine "needs" any particular oil. Honestly ANY oil will "work".

I know guy who was the head technician at a dodge dealership for over 25 years and he runs diesel oil in his V8 full-size. Has been for years, even put 10's of thousands of miles on it and the thing runs just as strong as the day he bought it. He just has access to it for free, only reason. He's also 55+ years old and doesnt rally his truck at high in the R's.

I ran diesel oil in a buick v6 I had for a few years and rallied the thing daily. It was my Grandmother's old car haha, the good ol' days... I ran it just because I had a case given to me for free. Ran like a champ til the day I sold it.

Older engines start to lose oil pressure over time, so bumping up a grade or two high will not hurt anything at all. Especially if it leaking oil its recommended to go heavier until you fix the problem. If you go real thick and like to spin 6+K on the daily then ya there will be a point where it will work against you.

Regardless of where a cars made or what century patroleum oil will still work, that was the only point I was making. Alot of this synthetic new age stuff is 75% marketing sales crap, then again there are others that do raise above the rest, I run either Royal Purple or AMS myself. But like I said its not "needed". Patroleum oil with more frequent oil changes will give me the same protection.

motoxxxman

there's a reason using anything thicker than 5w-30 in 2006ish and newer Honda/Toyota/other engines voids the powertrain warranty. sometimes even using 5w-30 will void the warranty if its a 5w-20 engine. nuff said.

Sparksman

Well we are in the Honda Prelude section of the Forum and Preludes went out of production in 2001. So that wouldnt ever apply to us.

If its under warranty why would I ever change the oil myself?
There's 100 different ways to void all dealership warranties, if half of us could afford a brand spanking new car we would prob would be over on that forum. Id love me a Evo-9 ****... lol

Were getting off topic....

motoxxxman

R8 *giggity*

yeah, back on topic. get a vid yet?