PreClude

I've been burning quite a bit of oil. I know there are bunch of threads on this topic, but I couldn't get too terrible of a definitive answer so I thought I'd ask about my specific question(s)...

Dropped the car off at the dealership today to get them to do a cylinder leak down test and then go from there. I already did a compression test on my own and all 4 cylinders were 180psi roughly. Originally I thought it might be my rings but the Comp test seemed OK. I have to add about 1qt of oil every other day maybe. I can't tell where it's leaking from exactly. There is a nice coat of oil underneath and on the oil pan, but I can't seem to locate the exact source. The PO did say he had to drop the pan and reseal it, so maybe that's part of it because it looks like a god awful job with RTV all over the place. But that doesn't explain the smoke and extremely rich type of smell I get from my exhaust

Bluish smoke out the tailpipe (when I can see it). Others have told me when they drive behind me on the highway it's a REALLY strong smell... and I don't think I'm running THAT rich. No, I don't have a cat, but still. I've had catless cars before and they never smelled as bad as this does.

So when the stealership calls me tomorrow to tell me everything in the world is broken on my car and they need $2000 to fix it, I want to be prepared with some numbers and information:

If you were doing a valve seal job, what else would you recommend doing while you're in there. Or rather, what else NEEDS to be done while you're in there? Springs? Valves? And how much labor and/or type of labor intensive would you expect to be charged? One guy at the dealer told me when they send the heads off to the shop to get decked or whatever and new seals etc it's like $350 but I don't know if that guy really knew what I was trying to ask because that seems low. I figured the labor alone would cost more than that - unless all the shop does it remove and reinstall the head?

Does the head have to come off for a valve seal job? Does the whole block need to come out? Because I was browsing the Helms manual and the only way they show to replace valve seals is with that huge compressor and with the motor out of the engine. Or at least the head I guess.

duke-luder

On like chevy 350 you can do it with the heads on the block. So more than sure you can also do it on your's. Ive seen people do it with compress air to keep the valve from falling in the cylinder. Ive hurd of people using nylon rope. Or am sure,you can put the piston at tdc so if the valve falls it will only go as far as the piston allowes. Then pick up the valve with a magnet I would assume. Put more then sure you can do it with the head on the block. Unless some one else can say different??? Also ive hurd that injectors can sometimes have excessive leakage which causes the blue smoke so yea. Hope I helped some.

carnot

You can perform a valve seal replacement with the cylinder head still in the car using compressed air to keep the valves from falling. You do need a special over-head spring compressor; Snap-on makes one but there are much cheaper knock-offs that work just as well. However, if the head is not removed you will not be able to tell anything about the condition of the valve guides which may be worn to the service limit and could cause oil to get past the valve seals even with new seals installed.

Keep in mind that a compression and leakdown test is not going to tell you anything about the condition of the oil control rings which is more than likely the problem if you are burning that much oil. It is possible to burn some oil through worn seals. What is your oil consumption rate in terms of # of miles/quart added? How many miles on the motor?

PreClude

I've got 140,445 miles on the motor. I just bought it when it had 137k, and I've been doing nothing but dumping thousands into it since I bought it it's seriously a headache like I've never had in a car before. This is the 3rd or 4th time it's been in the shop now and I've owned the car since May. So, two months? lol

Should I halt the dealership and tell them to skip the leakdown test if that's not going to tell me anything about the oil control rings? And if so, how do they test for the oil control ring failure? And how hard/expensive is that to replace vs the valve seal job for example maybe? I mean, just some estimates...

@Dark-Lude, yea I know you can do different things on a Chevy 350 because it's a pushrod motor. Sometimes those things have advantages that we don't (i.e. timing chain much stronger and less prone to failure than a timing belt on an interference type motor).

I would say my oil consumption rate is something like maybe 1qt over a 2-3 day period. It's really hard to say though because it sort of varies and confuses me. Sometimes I'll have good oil levels for a few days in a row and then suddenly I'll need to add 1/2 a qt.

carnot

I would go ahead and have them perform the leakdown test; more data is rarely a bad thing. I have been in your shoes and diagnosing an oil burn problem and determining whether it is the valve seals or oil rings can be time consuming and costly not to mention frustrating. If the car seems to run fine I imagine the leakdown results are going to show that there is a reasonable amount of leakdown for the number of miles on the motor (5-10% maybe).

From my experience if the oil consumption via burning is relatively slow (1 qt. every 3-4000 miles) this is probably from valve stem seals. If the oil consumption is higher (1 qt. <1000 miles) this is probably a ring problem.

I would start documenting the oil consumption in terms of qts. burned per mile and also note the type of driving cruising highway vs. city driving. When my rings were failing, I noticed a higher consumption rate when the motor was under sustained high vacuum (cruising) compared to variable vacuum (stop and go around town).

If the problem is oil rings and you are not going to do some of the rebuild labor (pulling motor, tearing it down) it is probably going to be cheaper to buy a low mileage used motor to have someone swap in instead of rebuilding it. Of course, you can buy a lot of cheap oil for the cost of a rebuild or replacement but burning that much oil will foul your converter and oxygen sensors.

PreClude

I really appreciate your input since it seems you have been through what I'm going through now! What did you end up doing in your situation?

Since you said more oil loss usually equates to the ring failure, I assume you mean the oil control rings right? Not the piston rings? Either way, maybe you're
Right and a new motor should
Be considered. I'm not sure about a rebuild vs a used one for example, but I will have to decide soon. If I have to rebuild it, I'm going
To probably want to put some better quality things in there where possible maybe.

The dealer
Should be calling me today with leakdown results and I'll tell them about the oil control rings now too. I will let you guys know!

carnot

Right, the role of the oil control rings is to scrape oil off the cylinder wall as the piston moves down to prevent it from being burned. Based on the fact that you got 180 psi for all cylinders when you performed a compression test, the compression rings are fine.

PreClude

Right on. Your help is a godsend haha. So the only way to really troubleshoot the oil control rings is to tear the head apart? I wonder if I can just get a rebuilt head instead of an entirely new (or used) long block...

carnot

Unfortunately there is no good test to confirm (for certain) an oil control ring problem. Taking the motor apart and disassembling the head will only allow you to check the condition of head and valve train wear points such as valve guides. Other than visual inspection of the cylinder walls, pulling the motor apart isn't going to shed any more light on the condition of the oil rings. However, if you service the cylinder head (valve job, new valve seals, and probably new exhaust guides based on the mileage of your motor) you can put the motor back together and know for sure that the problem is not something to do with the head. This is what I did before rebuilding the bottom end. Unless you are just interested or have the money to pay for a rebuild, you will probably save time and money by just getting another long block such as this:

http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/sc...age&item=30029

Or finding one from a local seller/engine dealer.

plikit

If it's worn rings and your consuming that much oil your sparkplugs would likely be fouled. Check those. I have a similar issue, I was burning 2 quarts every 300 miles but the plugs were fine and it drove fine.. (I did have a small leak but not big enough to lose so much.) I came to the conclusion that its likely the valve guides on the exhaust side, which was allowing oil through. I've since pulled the motor but not confirmed my thoughts. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

carnot

That is about the consumption rate I saw (1 qt. every 100-150 miles) from oil control rings not working. I also didn't notice any run-ability issues or plug fouling.

PreClude

Yea, my plugs seem to be OK. Aside from the retarded tune I have on the ECU now (guy from craigslist tuned me, long story), it doesn't run too bad. It's running in open loop constantly though, since the idiot doesn't know how to tune with the primary O2 sensor enabled apparently, so I'm getting worse gas mileage than if I had the O2 working correctly. But I'd probably be fouling it left and right with the rate of oil consumption I am seeing anyways so that's a wasted effort.


Anyways, the verdict is in from the dealership! Basically, it's exactly what carnot said. The leakdown test showed extremely minimal leak for a 140k mileage motor, and the compression was within spec. Obviously though, the source of the oil leak was unable to be determined without tearing the block apart and even then, like carnot said, there's probably no way to REALLY tell anyways. They recommended exactly as carnot said too, just get a new motor. Well, a used one anyways, since a new one would cost a fortune. But it appears maybe the used one they told me about isn't exactly a steal of a deal either though lol:

- $3750 for the used motor they found or whatever (I'm assuming H22A4) with 90k miles and a 90 day warranty (oh joy).
- $1700 to install it.

Something like $5700 or $5900 all said and done they said. I may be off by a few hundred give or take, I forget. I didn't bother remembering exactly because once I heard how much it was, I gave up all hope lol. I will look into the link carnot provided. I'll see if that price includes the entire long block and what their warranty may or may not be.... the dealer said if I can find a motor cheaper on my own they'll charge $1700 to put it in, and they can reuse some of my components on my current motor that are brand new that I have replaced in the last 1-2 months i.e. timing belt, t-stat, etc.


So yea, I'm a little frustrated/bummed/angry etc seeing as I bought this car for $4000 in May and now it's July and I am potentially looking at another $4000 at least to get the damn thing running right. THEN, I have to sort out my stupid tune. Probably going to have to go the Hondata route since that's the only way to get a competent person in my area to tune me correctly.

Anyone know of any other places to find reliable H22s?

carnot

I have heard of people getting motors from the hmotorsonline link I provided and they say the quality is good. Of course, it is always nice to find a local engine dealer in case there are problems; easier to deal with a local person. I don't know where you are located but you should be able to find a better deal on the motor swap (labor) at a private shop if you don't want to do it yourself. Motor swaps are pretty fun and you could probably knock it out in a long weekend if you have never done it before and have a buddy to help.

PreClude

Yea, I was just thinking about trying to find someone locally who might be a "garage expert" on Hondas and it would save me a ton of money. Of course then there is no warranty on labor (not that anyone honors that stuff anyways)... But I know you pay for what you get. $1700 to install a motor seems a little high to me, but I've never dealt with big projects like engine swaps. Done just about everything else though lol.

I haven't found anyone locally. Not with the selection, availability, and price that Hmotorsonline has anyways. The wait is about 2 weeks, and that's understandable I guess. I don't know what motor to choose from since I talked to Steve today. He was a nice guy and seemed pretty helpful. He said I could save some $ and just go with the earlier Prelude motors (H22A1) instead of getting what I have (H22A4). I honestly would rather just stay with what I have, provided the mileage is low.

Hmotors seems to have such a good selection of low mileage motors, I don't get it... especially if some of these motors haven't been produced in 10 years like my Prelude motor lol... how does one acquire so many low mileage old motors? Wrecks? I'm not saying I don't believe the mileage claims...but how can you really be sure? Do you check the VIN on the motor or another number stamped on the block with the DMV to see what car it was last registered to and the last mileage reported? Steve told me I think the Prelude motor H22A4 he has is roughly 45k miles... and that is just too good to be true considering I have 140k lol... I would think a 45k motor would last me quite a while. Assuming it is not burning oil through the control rings too though :/