Rosko

iTrader: (1)

I got the plenum measured on this thing today and I came up with ~1325cc's I took 3 different measurements and averaged them out. It was a bit difficult to tell where the plenum stopped and started since it doesnt come apart, but I think I'm pretty close.

I also measured the runner length on cylinder #3 (the straightest one) Distance was measured from the flange to the plenum on both the floor and roof of the runner.

runner length along the roof = 8"
runner length along the floor = 9.5"
aveage = 8.75" long

Here's some pics of the Euro-R compared to a cutaway of a usdm h22 manifold. Note the angle of the runner coming into the head compared to the usdm mani.




For comparison the usdm mani's runners are...

9.75" along the roof from flange to the top of the IAB plate
14.0" along the floor from flange to the top of the IAB plate (floor of long runner)

Enjoy

M@

From just looking at the cut away it looks like hogging out the usdm mainifold 8 => 4 would help if you can reduce the turbulence at the intake of the runner. It seems more like trumpet like which would give more of a range in the resonant refequency of the runners. I'm not real sure if that is even an issue to deal with on a 4 stroke like it is on a 2 stroke. I just think its a cool idea, and want to help if I can.

alterdcreations

good cutaway
thank for donating a manifold to the cause of making hp

SteveoBA8

Rosko= the man Much love for the H22

mgags7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SteveoBA8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rosko= the man </TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed

nice pics rosko

m@, I don't think its a great idea to cut out the dividers like that....think about how much velocity you would lose....

M@

Yeah, sorry I didn't say thanks. Thats awesome.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


m@, I don't think its a great idea to cut out the dividers like that....think about how much velocity you would lose....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I see where you coming from and I would like to back up my statement, but first as far as I can tell the only way to prove one way or the other is to test it, and it sounds like that may be happening I'm not real sure about anything hearsay on the internet.

My thought was that since the vol. of the plenum on the Euro-R and the USDM are pretty close 1325cc and 1420cc respectively. That the vol of the plenum while decreased doesn't have any other benefit other then being 25% closer to your goal of 1100cc.
Therefore a major benefit of the Euro-R is the length of the runners(shorter, 8.75" vs &gt;10"), and the single stage design.

With that in mind increasing the area more then double at the top half of the intake runner would decrease its effective length. Also back to the velocity thing you were saying. In the calculations that I use for entrance loss to pipes and such the velocity component of Bernoullies equation is muliplied agenst an entrance loss coeffecient. Since the velocity term is squared this is just like wind resistance on a car. This would reduce the intake loss term if that isn't negligble(think velocity stack).

An added benefit or penilty is that there would be more of a band for a resonate frequency with the end belled out much like a trumpet.

All said I would **** away anything I said if there was a dyno of a showing it sucked. Untill then I'm pro-die-grinder. It helps it's not my car or time too.

Thats just my 2 cents
P's out

mgags7

I definitely get where you're coming from. According to Rick Solis that doesn't work....but who knows...

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I definitely get where you're coming from. According to Rick Solis that doesn't work....but who knows...</TD></TR></TABLE>

dude, sssshh, you can't say his name on here haha... is there a thread you're reffering to?

If I'm following you guys right you're basically talking about doing what RLZ did to John's mani only with the stock plenum on top correct? If the same concept worked on John's then it might work with a stock plenum, who knows.

PirateMcFred

Thanks for the information, it's good to know. Glad that some people are still working on cultivating H-series power.

Now. Where's the Euro-R cutaway?

Pirate

94Vtecluder

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by M@ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, sorry I didn't say thanks. Thats awesome.

I see where you coming from and I would like to back up my statement, but first as far as I can tell the only way to prove one way or the other is to test it, and it sounds like that may be happening I'm not real sure about anything hearsay on the internet.

My thought was that since the vol. of the plenum on the Euro-R and the USDM are pretty close 1325cc and 1420cc respectively. That the vol of the plenum while decreased doesn't have any other benefit other then being 25% closer to your goal of 1100cc.
Therefore a major benefit of the Euro-R is the length of the runners(shorter, 8.75" vs &gt;10"), and the single stage design.

With that in mind increasing the area more then double at the top half of the intake runner would decrease its effective length. Also back to the velocity thing you were saying. In the calculations that I use for entrance loss to pipes and such the velocity component of Bernoullies equation is muliplied agenst an entrance loss coeffecient. Since the velocity term is squared this is just like wind resistance on a car. This would reduce the intake loss term if that isn't negligble(think velocity stack).

An added benefit or penilty is that there would be more of a band for a resonate frequency with the end belled out much like a trumpet.

All said I would **** away anything I said if there was a dyno of a showing it sucked. Untill then I'm pro-die-grinder. It helps it's not my car or time too.

Thats just my 2 cents
P's out</TD></TR></TABLE>

Longer runners increase the air flow velocity shifting powerbands lower. Ofcourse the diameter changes the flow capacity and slows down the velocity. So there is a balance there. Also larger plenums shift powerbands higher, and smaller lower. Also about the difference on a dyno the dual stage IM should have a "M" shape to it's torque curve. This is because when the butterflies are closed the air flow is disturbed and the engine will eventually have a peak with this and then degrade creating the first half the "M." Then your buttflies open drastically improving the air flow again, this will cause your torque to go back up and peak again creating the second half of the "M." The Euro-R has 4 runners that are open all the time, so the air flow quality remains the same throughout the entire power band and should have a more direct torque relationship peaking at the very end. I know for a fact or at least 90% sure there was a dyno here a couple years ago comparing Euro-R, normal H22, and Skunk2 manifold but I can't for the life of me find it.

94Vtecluder

Something else cool I found. A peak torque and runner calculator.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

[i]
Relationship of Intake Port to Torque Peak
For a given intake port design, the cross-sectional area of the runner affects the location of an engine's torque peak in the RPM band. The runner length and shape is also very important, but the cross-sectional area will be the strongest determining factor.
Basically, the smaller the runner diameter, the less air potential there is. As the runner gets longer, inertia in the column of air will increase the flow at lower rpms and will tend to decrease the flow at higher rpms. Once again, inlet port cross-sectional area will be the main determinant of total airflow potential.

Keep in mind that these calculations must be used in conjunction with header tube diameter and length, valve size, head flow, and camshaft selection. For instance, if your camshaft is designed to peak at 4500 RPM, but your manifold and headers are tuned for 6500 RPM, your actual torque peak will fall somewhere between 4500 and 6500 RPM, and the useable torque band from 2500 to 4500 rpm will be lengthened and flattened. On the other hand, if you match the intake, headers, heads, and camshaft all for 5000 rpm, the torque peak will fall very close to 5000 RPM. Also, keep in mind that peak torque and peak horsepower do not occur at the same rpm and that when you shift it is always better to fall back to a region of maximum torque instead of trying to "climb the mountain" to get back to your next redline shift point. We cannot emphasize enough that you must view the engine as a complete system and not concentrate on only one aspect of it..

pwl

Rosko, could you please measure the throttle body port on the Euro R, I am very interested in how big a throttle body you can put on it, without having to modify the idle air port on the throttle body flange.

PWL

alterdcreations

I think its the same size as the h22

pwl

Ok, that would be about 64mm and make it hard to put a large (70mm+) throttle body on it, without having to weld the idle air port shut, and then drilling it out again ??

PWL

alterdcreations

but its easier on the euro because the idle valve is on the back of the manifold where as the dual peice has the chamber going under and around to front.
i went right into it when i overbored to 74mm but their are ways to get around it but its a pain in the ***

pwl

For reference I have measured a Skunk2 H22 manifold, it is the old version (not the Pro)

The runners are about 10,5 inch at the roof and 12,0 inch at the floor

The plenum is a huge 2300-2400 cc

The throttle body port is 65,8 mm and can be ported to 75 mm without modifying the idle air port.

PWL

alterdcreations

i think that cutting out the all of the aluminum in the lower half of the dual stage manifold and having the runners begin at bottom(right at the dimple mark in the runner)might help out the upper rpms, also maybe remove the secondary throttle plate completely their for redusing the plenum size and totally changing the charisitics of the manifold might work better at upper rpms. with out giving up too much lower rpm power.(if any)
the runners are very long to begin with

M@

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94Vtecluder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Also about the difference on a dyno the dual stage IM should have a "M" shape to it's torque curve. This is because when the butterflies are closed the air flow is disturbed and the engine will eventually have a peak with this and then degrade creating the first half the "M." Then your buttflies open drastically improving the air flow again, this will cause your torque to go back up and peak again creating the second half of the "M." </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree, but if you compare a single stage design at its intended power band to the dual stage design at its intended power band the single stage will win every time due to the inherent flaws in the dual stage design. I think that fact is critical in reaching peak power. Its clear that as long as you are above the point where the secondaries open that a single stage manifold would be ideal.

Ohh and by they way I don't have buttflies thank you very much.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pwl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rosko, could you please measure the throttle body port on the Euro R, I am very interested in how big a throttle body you can put on it, without having to modify the idle air port on the throttle body flange.

PWL</TD></TR></TABLE>

It measures 63.5 across and 64.0 up and down as cast so we'll just call it 64. The web between the bore and the IACV port is 4mm thick so I'd say 66mm max to be safe, but you could prolly squeeze a 68 in there and have .08" for a gasket to seal on if you wanted to push it. FWIW I've overbored a stock mani at 70mm and had it break through.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but its easier on the euro because the idle valve is on the back of the manifold where as the dual peice has the chamber going under and around to front.
i went right into it when i overbored to 74mm but their are ways to get around it but its a pain in the ***</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think it would be too bad to break into it. I've already made up a bunch of IACV adapter plates, all I'd have to do is make a thicker version, leave out the port that leads to the throttle body and run a hole out the side of the plate with a little breather hooked to it or something.



If you absolutley didn't want to break into the port you could maybe change the bore location, i.e. move it down and to the right and then use adapter plates and such to relocate the throttle body, but THAT would be a pain in the ***.

Good tech here guys keep it up

94Vtecluder

Awsome, the Euro-R runners look straighter. Much better for velocity which is the most important thing in na cars. Might have to pick one up myself, just saw one for 250, I didn't know they were so cheap.

Also for those talking about using the blaktraxx adapter as you can see the R runners are shorter which means less flow capacity. What it does mean it more velocity. Doing something like increasing the volume of the already long H22 runners *could* be a bad thing on most engines. Going with too much volume will degrade velocity and create more turbulance. One thing is for sure since the velocities will be slower you better have big cams and high compression to FORCE the air thru into combustion chambers. If you can't do that with velocity like the Euro-R then your going to need high compression to use pressure differences to force the air in there.

subydoored

here is the link for you and those dynos no one could find on the euro r skunk2 and stocker
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=951120

mgags7

FYI I bored my stock plenum starting at 70mm down to about 65mm (as the disk wore out lol), and its not into any ports, it is very close, but not quite in there....then again I may have been slightly off center....

94Vtecluder

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by subydoored &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here is the link for you and those dynos no one could find on the euro r skunk2 and stocker
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=951120</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup that's the thread I was thinking of except it seems to be missing the dyno now.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

At the end of 2point6's thread thers a link to another one that has a dyno graph. the other guy basically came up with the same results. good link though

subydoored

Hmm seeing all this talk makes me want to build an intake manifold