1GPlusSH

For the first two weeks of riding, I only leaned. I have just started countersteering around small curves, and I can come through them much faster and accelerate much harder. How about the 60+mph curves? Would this be a bad thing to do?

I've looked around online and have only found at what speeds you do each. Generally, you countersteer at slower speeds. I can't find the downside to doing this at faster speeds. It seems like you would have more downward weight on the tire if you were directly over it instead of leaning with the bike. I've seen things about contact patch being less when you countersteer, but with the rounded tire, this doesn't make sense to me.

I have to assume that all professionals lean. Are there any competitive ones that countersteer? If not, there's my answer, but I would like some insight as to why.

Blindstuff

Countersteering is the only way to lean effectively at almost any speed.

Try to read "Total Control" by Lee parks. Its a good book

MSchu

you need to counter steer at most any speed... counter steering along with peg weighting and unweighting facilitates the initial bike direction change. Once you are into a corner, lets say a long 5-10 second high speed sweeper, the counter steering(very tiny) can still apply for micro adjustments in arch... this can also be accomplished by simply weighting and unweighting inside and outside pegs.

Generally, as speed increases... you use less input(whatever that input is). This is why things(input errors) more often than not happen at slower speeds.(I'm not talking about running to the side of a car at 60mph). the rider is doing more effort at slower speeds and this means a higher chance for an error.

Take that with a grain of salt because a rider really needs both low speed and high speed skill to be an effective and skillful rider.

You are asking good questions... keep on trucking

1GPlusSH

will do.

thanks for the input, guys. i love hanging corners in cars and am absolutely loving it on the bike. i just want to make sure i get started right. the msf course said to push down on the handlebars the way you want to go. i didn't know they literally meant push. i just kept leaning. the countersteering is so much easier and faster.

theedeadmau5

i dont think i've ever used countersteering as a way to lean the bike. i will admit its very effective but none of the pros use it, their asses are off the bike in the direction of the turn 100 yards before they even get there which gives them the ability to lean quickly without a countersteer and put a knee down all in one motion. you're not going fast enough to make just leaning in the direction of the turn ineffective, countersteering in my opinion should only be used to avoid something in the road because the bike will react violently at any speed above 60. and DO NOT...i repeat DO NOT...countersteer in the middle of a lean, unless you want some scars.

the best advice i can give you at this point is to stop thinking so much

MSchu

you have to remember, the counter steer is used for facilitation of a direction change. no real quick movement can be done without it as steering in the opposite direction causes the chassis to move downward towards the direction you are turning. Once in the turn you use body english and peg weighting, however I do use counter steering mid corner myself.

there are many styles in riding even within the same discipline. I use counter steering nearly all the time in my riding as an extension of my feel for the bike. you should NOT think your way through a corner, you should feel your way through.

many times riders are using counter steering even though they do not realize it.

Starscream

I had used countersteering all the time before even realizing what it was. Back from my bicycle days.

It isn't a hidden science or a mythical samurai technique...it is something really simple, really small inputs that you do unconsciously, but have a great effect on your turn in speed.

I think Keith Code has some bike with two sets of handlebars, one fixed and the other normal, to teach you about the importance of countersteering to get the bike to turn in.

1GPlusSH

thanks for the differing view. this is what i wanted. i know i'm just a noob, but i want to ride like the pros ride. i don't want to start out riding and cornering in a way that is going to limit me and not the bike.

and can't help but be analytical. i'm like that about everything i've ever done. i want to know the different ways to do things so that i can try them and see what works for me. every sport i've ever done has been like that for me when i first started them. after awhile, the things that work become second nature.

1GPlusSH

got it

Kiwibird83

LOLWUT? Please tell me you're trolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_A8k58ysSw

Physics > Internet Bullshit

For the OP, go watch and read "A twist of the wrist II" and avoid all the **** poor advice flowing off internet forums.

1GPlusSH

this is an eye opener. thanks for the post.

i've been watching a LOT of racing videos today, and wow, those guys are ridiculous. you can see them slightly countersteering in the turns. the whole butt shift will take some practice. i'll try that a few months from now.

Blindstuff

No offense, but deadmaus5 is terribly wrong. All the pros counter-steer.

Hanging off the bike works by bringing the weight closer to the inside of the corner, its not hanging off that makes you turn.

I counter-steer to bring my bike back to a straight position after lean and I see nothing wrong with it, by doing it that way I can keep my body still, and after I've reached 0 lean bring my body back to the center of the bike avoiding any wobbles.

Considering I had read this in various books, and then California superbike school taught me so, I strongly believe it works.

ATOTW II is a great book, but its aimed at more experienced riders IMO.

1GPlusSH

then that's what i'm going to shoot for

and this answers my question about counterweighting. i was trying to understand the physics behind it. at first, it seemed like having your weight as close to directly over the tire was best, but bringing your weight closer to the inside of the corner does make more sense.

MSchu

Hanging off allows the bike to stand more upright where the meat of your tires contact patch lies. believe me plush... you are not going fast enough to hang off, of that much I am sure.

at most you might simply need to sneak a cheek off to one side or another and use body english to make microscopic adjustments in chassis attitudes. ***** of your feet and thighs/are your control points.... dont HANG onto the handlebars, your arms will pump and you will constrain your range of movement. your arms need to be free and flexible while riding. to many new riders are "Holding one for dear life"... that's the wrong thing to do.

A motorcycle will ALWAYS naturally want to "stand up" in a turn. there is almost no need to do anything except nail the throttle once you apex to get a bike to stand up. for example, if your in a fast turn and you jump off the bike mid turn, the bike will automatically STAND UP and continue in a near straight line do to rotational effects of the unsprung weight(rims and tires).

try this little exercise next time you are riding... while riding in a straight line, think that you are about to turn right and ever so litely flick your handle bars left and release the pressure to go straight... when you do that little flick, you will immediately see that the bike dips in attitude towards the right, in the opposite direction to the way you were flicking/steering(left) it's this countersteer that causes the bikes chassis to fall in the opposite direction towards the way you want to go.

Nearly all the time this is happen intuitively and automatically(dont think, feel), cause if it doesn't you are going to be one of those riders that end up in the statistical column of accidents where the rider says... "the bike just wouldn't turn!"

this type of accident is often refereed to as the target fixation accident.

theedeadmau5

i never countersteer and i have no problem walking down a 1000 or a 750 with my 600 any day of the week. this is just my personal opinion brosef and how i ride seems to work pretty well according to my times vs. everyone elses, but then again i guess i dont ride like everyone else in the world either evidently. and you can read all the books in the world and take as many classes as you want it still doesnt compare to getting out and putting miles on your bike and figuring out whats comfortable to you. blah blah blah im done, i might get another "infraction"

1GPlusSH

i'm not trying to argue; i'm genuinely curious...how do you know that you don't? in that video, i couldn't tell the guy was countersteering at all until it showed the meter.

and my original question was regarding counterweight. i apologize for the mix-up in vocabulary even though this thread has given me a lot to think about.

this is definitely the bottom line

Blindstuff

I'm positive you are countersteering, you just dont realize it.
If you are that fast, im also pretty sure if you read up on countersteering and started to apply it you would see a great improvement in your riding, especially in turn in speed, it takes far less to reach optimal lean when conciously countersteering.

I have over 25,000 miles under my belt, im no pro, nor do I prettend to be, but i've done a lot more than just read books. The good part about reading books before trying new stuff out is that someone else goes through all the bad attempts before you so you dont have to.

There is no absolute truth when it comes to riding, you are right about that, but your riding style should be in the wide area of what is considered to be right, not just what you want.