shadetreeCRV

2000 CR-V 140,000 miles

A few days ago, while driving about 35mph, the engine quit. I immediately pulled over, and checked for spark, fuel, etc. unfortunately cranking the engine over several times. After removing the distributor cap, I noticed that the rotor wasn't spinning when the engine turned over...

Towed home, checked the timing belt. Teeth sheared off down at the crank gear. Cams are no longer being turned by the belt.

My question is this: Before I go and check all the valve clearances, how likely is it that I WON'T have to take the head off and send it out to a shop? I've seen a few threads to the effect that a new belt was put on and everything seems fine, but no follow up or valve numbers. I called around to a couple of Honda shops and asked this question and basically was told that it just depends. Sometimes valves bend, sometimes they're A-ok, sometimes they get slightly bent and cause trouble even though a feeler gauge shows within specs.

So, let's say I check the valves and find them within specs. Are there any other elements that could indicate against just putting a new belt, seals and water pump on and firing it up? Valve seats? Guides? This is my first experience with a t-belt failure (girlfriend's car, poorly maintained before it came to me) and with DOHC.

Thanks!

Hawkze_2.3

I would do a compression test also....good luck to you .

Why would the teeth shear off at the gear? Something else stop the timing belt before that? Weird....

Slopoke

I assume you mean the teeth sheared off the belt at the gear. The teeth didnt shear off the gear, correct?

To check the valves, the easiest thing to do is throw a new belt on and start it up. If it runs like complete crap, you've bent some valves.

If it seems to run ok, do a compression and leak down test. If you are unfamiliar with a leak down test, with the cyl at top dead center and all the valves closed, you put air pressure to the cylinder. If you are getting excessive leak, you can check to see what is causing the problem. For example, if you can hear air leaking into the intake manifold, you have leaking intake valves. Air into the exhaust means leaking exhaust valves. Pull the oil cap, if air is leaking into the valve cover(which means its leaking into the crank case) your rings are the problem.

Good luck.

shadetreeCRV

Well, I decided to go ahead and measure the valve tolerances. I put the pistons at half-mast and put the cams at TDC for each cylinder, etc.

The result is that six of the intake valves measure loose by .001 of an inch. About the same number of valves, intake and exhaust, measured tight by the same margin.

I'm thinking that's not too bad! Right now I'm leaning towards putting things back together and starting it up. What do you guys think?

Yep, compression and leak down are good ideas. That will probably confirm or contradict my good feelings about the valves.

And yes, the teeth are shorn off the belt, not the crank gear, thank goodness.

MonkeyMagic

how exactly are you getting these measurements?

either way, put a timing belt on it and crank it by hand a few times to see if everything seems copacetic. if everything spins, pull the plugs out and do a compression test. can't get a compression tester?? don't feel like doing a compression test?? skip to the trying to start it part. it'll either run, run like ****, or won't run at all. it's pretty unlikely that you'll do any further damage.

DPancoast

This! IMO. Least you can do as said by a couple people is throw a new belt on and see what happens. Other than that I agree with the above post.

shadetreeCRV

I just ran out to the store and bought a leak down tester. Will post numbers in a short while.

My valve clearance numbers are coming from inserting a feeler gauge between the cam lobe and the rocker seat. Intake specs are .003-.005 inches, and several of the intake measurements I got were .006 inches.

If the leak down comes up good, I'll feel good about putting everything back together (with appropriate replacement parts). My girlfriend routinely uses this car to make the 600+ mile trip to Michigan from Tennessee to visit family, so I don't want any lingering doubts on my part.

I do have to vent a little about the widespread ignorance of leak down kits in my area (east TN). I spent most of today educating parts houses about what the thing was only to have them tell me they didn't have one. The place where I finally bought it from told me in the morning that they didn't have it, and when, after scouring the area for a kit, I called them back with an item number, they said "oh, yeah, we've got several of those." As a result, I'm doing the test in the dark at below freezing temperatures instead of in the morning. Ah, well, what can you do. Minimum wage only goes so far towards wanting to do a good job.

shadetreeCRV

Well, I ran a leakdown on all four cylinders, and it sounds like bad news. Numbers one and three were both 45% while two and four were around 35%. Now that I'm away from the car it occurred to me that I could have opened up the throttle to listen if there were leakage through the intake manifold. However, I could hear and feel air coming out of the spark plug holes on the adjacent cylinders.

There doesn't appear to be any correlation between the valve clearance measurements I got and the leak down test results.

Are these catastrophic numbers? I've never done a leak down test before, so I don't have a reference point other than what I've read, which is that optimum numbers are around 10%.

When I talked to a Honda mechanic at the dealer, he said that if there were any valve work done, considering the mileage (140k), he would go ahead and do a ring job so that increased compression from the new valves wouldn't blow past the rings and cause it to burn oil.

Am I in for a full tear-down and rebuild? I've got the hoist and stand and everything, but I don't relish the thought of doing it just now. What are your thoughts?

I took several readings on each cylinder and averaged them, and as far as I know I did everything correctly, but I would welcome the news that I am simply performing the test wrong.

Thanks for your input!

shadetreeCRV

Here's what I'm thinking. If I pull the head, I'm going all in and doing a full rebuild. This car has been poorly maintained and I wouldn't be surprised if it's missed an oil change or seven and the internals are more worn than mileage would suggest.

But, before I do that, I'm going to put everything back together with new belts, seals, and water pump, and see what I've got. That way, I'll have a reference point for all these test results, and I'll have some practice setting up this engine. I'll be in about a day's labor, but compared to a complete rebuild, that's not much.

Sure, a full rebuild would put me "upside down" in this car's value, but I've been upside down on all my cars so long ('84 volvo 240 diesel, '83 porsche 944) that if I were right side up, it would freak me out. The enemy on this CRV is rust! My girlfriend never washed the underside of her car during the salty Michigan winters, and several things are in critical condition, not to mention bolts are hell to break loose.

I'll let you all know how it runs...or doesn't.

johnjw

Serious, put a new timing belt on it and start it, of course make sure everything is lined up. Your not going to hurt anything, the damage if anything is already done. I've seen CRV's with broken t-belts that had no valve damage. When the belt breaks, the cams will stop at a point where most of the valves are closed or are very close to being closed. Most of the time when you have bent valves is when the belt broke at a higher rpm.

I would try it before you tear it down, its easier than removing the head. Good luck!

The Chazzer

x2 it won't hurt anything, and if you end up still having to pull the head, you can still use that timing belt...it's worth a shot.
Even if it just runs "ok"...you can drive it until you find a good used motor to drop in...or have time to build one.

94EG8

If you're thinking of doing a complete rebuild I'd just buy a low mileage JDM replacement engine. They're cheap and they have the added bonus of generally coming complete with the distributor, alternator, power steering pump and exhaust manifold still on. Just replace the timing belt, front and rear seals and the cam seals before you put it in and you should be good to go. Make sure it's the high compression B20B '99 - '01 engine you're getting, earlier models are lower compression and lacking about 20hp.

shadetreeCRV

Today I put it all back together and started it up. It sounds a bit different than it did before, with some slight valve noise (tick tick tick), but nothing catastrophic. Tomorrow I'll put the wheel back on and drive it around and do a compression test if I can find my compression gauge. The thing that's puzzling me right now is that there is a whistling noise that's coming from...I don't know where yet except from the rear half of the engine. Maybe it's just a poor intake connection? I'll try and figure that out tomorrow. Best case scenario we can drive it while keeping an eye on it until it tells us enough is enough. Time will tell. I'll post more as I find it out. By the way, just for ***** and giggles, I called in my circumstances to Car Talk. Anybody else listen to that show? I think they're hilarious, and a couple of bada$$ mechanics. Although they've mellowed in their age and are suggesting more and more often that a person just scrap their car instead of fix it. But as far as they go themselves, they drive dinosaurs that they maintain by the sweat of their brow.

94EG8

Btw, in relation to your tight exhaust valves, '99 - '01 CR-Zs were well known for burning exhaust valves because they receed into the head and get tight and burn, adjust them frequently (every 30,000 or so) and adjust them to the loose side of the spec.

shadetreeCRV

Drove it around to today, to fill up with gas and buy some various things at the parts store, and it seems good. From the driver's seat you wouldn't know anything had changed. It's not overheating, not blowing smoke, no stumbling or hesitation, just a slight ticking from (I assume) some valves. Power and pick up seem to me to be the same. I haven't run compression tests yet, but the seat of the pants feel is the same.

The whistling turned out to be a bad PCV valve. There are so many things on this car that are original (like the fuel filter!!) 140k miles old that it gives me chills. Next thing is to replace all filters and fluids (I already changed the oil) and drive it like normal (with a box of tools and jacks handy in the back!).

I suppose I could try adjusting the valves to see if I can eliminate the ticking noise, but right now I want to wait and see. Don't want to muddy the water with too many variables.

94EG8

I'n all seriousness I've never seen a honda fuel filter plug up yet. I changed mine at around 370,000kms just because it had never been done, when I drained the old one there was no sediment in it, just clean gas. Also, if you're changing ignition components like cap, rotor and wires buy Honda OEM stuff or expect to be changing them frequently (oem wires will generally outlast the vehicle)

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

... just changed my fuel filter this past week. Original, with 350,000km on it. Will check for sediment in it!

Siriuswerks

at least 4 valves are bent minimum you dont need a tester for that its a interference engine. now take it to a shop that knows what they are doing, and work with a reputable machine shop to do the head

94EG8

They're an interference engine but it's still pretty common to not bend valves.

The Chazzer

I like how you can talk so certainly about bent valves having never seen it.

MonkeyMagic

i'd do this as well. less cash, less hassle. going from asking what to do after loosing a timing belt to building reliable engines in one quick step is well.. unlikely.

how do you get four? ill-thought comment

danyostar

This may be from valves being bent. If the tick is more than normal, I would highly suggest you take it apart and check for bent valves. When you bend valves, they don't correctly seat causing the combustion of the engine to overtime weaken the valve. This allows the valve to break off and fall into the engine which will cause even more damage. I've seen this many times with bent valves.

jasonALYK

iTrader: (1)

Just from my experience, my 01 crv timing belt broke on the highway going about 75mph, like yours the teeth of the belt were sheared off going around the crank pulley gear. I put a new timing belt in it, did a comp. test and made 200+ psi per cylinder and has ran fine ever since. Also car had about 170,000 miles on it at the time.

shadetreeCRV

JasonALYK, how long ago did your belt go? How is it doing today?

andrew4g63

I have also seen belts break and the motors be fine on hondas of all types.
The only honda engine I have seen bend valves was a 1.7 from a 4dr sedan.