forevermemorabl

I changed my timing belt and water pump and I might have set my crank shaft and cam shaft with my timing marks and not the TDC mark, before I took off the old timing belt. I also put the new timing belt on (without moving the crank shaft and cam shaft) and tried to start the car, but it wouldn't turn over...new battery and starter sounds just fine...car will not turn over.

I have read that the crank shaft and cam shaft need to be placed at TDC when changing a timing belt...my question is...why? Does it really matter where they are located when changing a timing belt? Isn't really the problem come if either the crank shaft or cam shaft move while installing timing belt? I don't see the logic in having everything set at TDC...there is nothing special with how the timing belt is put on and logically you would receive the same results whether the crank and cam are on TDC or not. It seems the issue is, "DON'T MOVE THE CRANK OR CAM WHEN PUTTING THE NEW TIMING BELT ON." It all comes down to gears and the timing belt being fitted to fit into the grooves...and the groves will line up and the gears still look the same whether or not the crank and cam are set up at TDC.

I look at it really logical here...lets say I replaced my timing belt 180 degrees opposite of TDC and I removed my old timing belt (WITHOUT moving the crank or cam one bit) and I place my new timing belt on...in the exact same position, matter, belt lines up perfectly with teeth, etc. What variables have changed?

strategy400

Most important is that the traction side of the belt is taught (assuming the cam and crank have not moved). The count of belt teeth between cam tooth 'a' and crank tooth 'b' should be the same as before removal. I usually mark my belt and pulleys with white out before removal, then transfer the marks to the new belt, count the teeth on each belt to be sure, then install the new belt aligning the marks.
If you miss-time your engine you risk the valves colliding with the pistons, a potentially very expensive mistake.

xile6

It doesn't matter if its all set to tdc or not. If nothing is move then it will align back up.
But you set everything to tdc so you know where everything is at and can easily put it all back together.

But if its not spinning at all the something went very wrong.

forevermemorabl

I am 90% confident that I aligned the crankshaft with the "3" timing marks and not the actual TDC white line mark; however, I am 90% confident that neither the cam shaft or crankshaft moved at all during the removal and installation or the timing belt.

But, after reading much information in various threads, I am second guessing myself thinking that maybe the crank or cam moved ever so slightly during removal and or installation.

What I can tell you'all for sure is that my car is working just fine in its running condition...I just decided one day to replace timing belt and water pump...I put everything back together exactly the way it was (checked everything a dozen times) and now the car does not start up. I put the key in the ignition and try to turn the car on and I can here the starter running and I have checked for spark (there is spark), there is compression in cylinder #1, the belts are all moving, but the car will not turn over. I also personally used a multi-meter to check every fuse and relay in the car for continuity and every fuse and relay is working.

I am going to go out and check my timing marks with cylinder #1. I can take a screw driver and place it in cylinder #1 to see if the cylinder is all the way at the top when the car is at TDC...of course, this might not be a perfect evaluation if the timing is ever so slightly off, but at least it is a start...I will come back with my results.

forevermemorabl

Okay, I have spent several hours taking pictures and Photoshopping my results. I am posting 3 different collages of pictures, because it takes my crankshaft 2 revolutions to complete one cycle. The first two sets of collages is the TDC white mark. The third collage of photos is another mark on the crankshaft, which I am not sure what it is, but I am attaching it here.

strategy400

I have a 95 1.5 and it has the 'UP' mark

p3p69

them pics say your off 180 at tdc your cam gear should have the "up" mark at the top

94EG8

If nothing moves (tip: something always moves) it wont so much matter for timing, but it may affect trying to set the tension.

When I time one of these I don't use the lower timing cover and pulley for reference, I used the pointer on the oil pump and crank gear. For a D15B7 pay no attention to the 7 o'clock pointer on the cam gear. use the other two timing marks and make sure they line up with the surface of the head. Put the belt on in this order. Crank gear, tensioner, waterpump, cam gear. Put a little tension on the tensioner, tighten the bolt, crank it over counterclockwise with a ratchet or a bar, recheck timing, if it's good loosen the tensioner bolt a couple of turns, turn the engine over counterclockwise until 3 teeth go up on the came gear and tighten the tensioner bolt.

Edited belt installation order, it starts at the crank gear and ends at the cam gear.

forevermemorabl

Thanks for responding. Here is something I thought of...what if the cam and crank both shifted (even just a little bit), when I originally put this timing belt on...this would mean putting the crank or cam at TDC would be faulty, because I would not know if it was an accurate reading; unless I go by judging where cylinder #1 piston is at (highest stroke up, means TDC). Well, now that I think of it, looking at my picture #2, it shows cylinder/piston #1 at the top most position; whereas the crankshaft white TDC line is in line with line of sight mark AND it shows that the cam is off just a bit.

Okay, Lets start with picture #2...my next step is to remove timing belt. After that, I rotate cam just a tad to line up TDC marks with engine block and the last line aligned up with the place it should be (as shown in picture #2). I read somewhere about some type of valve spring whereas something needs to be held down tight while this process is performed. I am not sure if this is true or not. Anyways, would the next step be to loosen tensioner? Next, follow re-installation of timing belt by putting belt around cam first, then crankshaft, then tensioner, and finally waterpump. After which, then tighten tensioner? Finally, rotate the engine a few times counter-clockwise ofcourse (for my engine) and see if the timing lines up. Please correct me anywhere in the procedure or add anything you think is important.

strategy400

As 94EG8 stated, use the notch on the crank gear, line it up with the arrow on the oil pump housing. Line the 2 lines on the cam gear up with the surface of the valve cover surface on the head. You may need a mirror to get a straight on look at it. Now you are in position to mount the timing belt. I put a mark on the cam gear to correspond with the 7 oclock pointer on the top timing cover for future reference (that pointer is for the D16Z6). See picture below and follow it carefully.

94EG8

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. If both the crank and cam timing marks are lined up it's timed, if they don't both line up it's not.

Okay, Lets start with picture #2...my next step is to remove timing belt. After that, I rotate cam just a tad to line up TDC marks with engine block and the last line aligned up with the place it should be (as shown in picture #2). I read somewhere about some type of valve spring whereas something needs to be held down tight while this process is performed. I am not sure if this is true or not. Anyways, would the next step be to loosen tensioner? Next, follow re-installation of timing belt by putting belt around cam first, then crankshaft, then tensioner, and finally waterpump. After which, then tighten tensioner? Finally, rotate the engine a few times counter-clockwise ofcourse (for my engine) and see if the timing lines up. Please correct me anywhere in the procedure or add anything you think is important.[/quote]

You're more or less right, I did screw up the order somewhat (start at the crank gear and finish on the cam gear, it's been a while since I did one of these)

After you have the belt on and turn it over a few times put the engine to to TDC, loosen the tensioner adjusting bolt enough so the tensioner can move, the manual says half a turn, I usuually go with a full turn just to make sure. Turn the engine counterclockwise with a bar or ratchet until 3 teeth go up on the cam gear, retighten the tensioner adjusting bolt. This is what sets the tension.

forevermemorabl

Thanks for the diagram posting and information strategy400. And thank you as well 94EG8 for your response. Let me ask this of you guys...getting the crankshaft bolt off was probably the most difficult bolt I have ever had to remove...no air tool could get it off and it took sheer force with a pipe extender and jumping on with all dear might, to get it loose. Than, trying to get the lower timing belt casing off was more difficult than that, because there is very limited space in which to remove it. I think the whole process takes 4 hours. Since we are just talking about the timing belt and cam shaft here...couldn't I just place the crank at TDC with the white mark (which it is currently at), loosen the tensioner, slip the timing belt off the cam, adjust the cam to be at its TDC marks, slip timing belt back on, rotate crank a couple of times to see if all TDC marks line up, and if all TDC marks line up, then finally tightening tensioner bolt. Here are some new pictures...and would you believe I have discovered the "UP" on my cam...whoever put the white mark on the cam, covered it up...I had to scratch through it to see if it was there.

forevermemorabl

In light of what you said, am I to loose tensioner, remove belt, adjust cam to its respective TDC location, put belt back on, and at this point do I rotate the crank a few times and than check TDC marks for proper location "or" do I tighten tensioner up and than rotate crank to check that the TDC marks line up?

forevermemorabl

Success!

At first, I loosened tensioner, removed belt, adjusted cam just a little bit to get it to TDC, put belt back on, then rotate crank several rotations; however, the cam got off again (because I did not tighten tensioner back up).

Going at it again, I get crank to TDC, tensioner is already loose, I remove belt, adjust cam just a little bit to TDC, tighten tensioner, rotate crank several times and TDC lines all match up. I turn on the car and it starts! Sweeeeeeet! Of course, I will adjust the timing with my timing light, just for good measure.

I have one question though...how close should the TDC marks on the cam be with the engine block? Its hard to tell with just looking at the indent TDC lines. I mean, I see that the word "UP" is sure enough in the "UP" position, but how accurate are we talking about here that my cam needs to be to TDC? Are we talking about within 1 centimeter...within a millimeter? Yes my car started up (after a good 8 months of sitting)...I just want to make sure my valves don't get destroyed, all because my cam is just a millimeter or two off (which is so hard to tell).

I actually discovered in my Chilton, that in my #2 picture where I said, "This line is suppose to be aligned here" is actually wrong. With my particular engine (D15B7), I do not line it with that...I align the TDC marks with the cylinder head upper surface and make sure the "UP" is in fact "UP." The results of that third indent line that I made the mistake of saying where it should be aligned, is actually slightly off to the left of that pointy line on the plastic casing...it also shows it slightly off in my Chilton (for my particular engine). However, for the D15B6 engine, you need to align it with that plastic casing line. Never the less, I am pretty sure the blasted thing is close as I can get it.



I got everything put back together, but I have noticed the car runs hot. I am not sure if it ran that hot before. I mean the distributor, radiator, radiator hose is not just hot, but VERY HOT. Maybe its been too long since I had this car running. And yes, my temperature gauge shows normal operating temperatures and my radiator fan comes on.

One last thing, I hear a very faint slow squeaky noise coming from my engine...not sure what to make of that.

strategy400

The manual page I posted is what most Honda dealerships use. Follow it and you cannot go wrong.

94EG8

It's probably advanced a tooth. Advanced timing will run very hot. If it's retarded a tooth it will idle beautifully but it'll be very laggy and have no pickup.

forevermemorabl

Well, when I got my car started, I let it run for 10-15 minutes. I realized how hot it was getting and turned the car off...the fan kept coming on and it was hot, hot, hot...more than I have ever noticed before. Than I realized that my car needed some coolant (2 reservoir tanks worth). When I replaced the water pump 8 months ago, of course coolant came out. I forgot about this, because the car has sat for the past 8 months.

Never the less, the temperature gauge reads fine and the coolant is back where it should be. I think the car just needs to get running for the time being and all the gears re-used, lubrication flowing, and all other liquids flowing once again.