B18C5-EH2

First of all I posted this in the "right" forum, the Hybrid forum, but that forum is dead. Since I'm posting it here in a higher traffic forum PLEASE respect my wishes and keep it on the topic at hand.

I've currently got a really nice running full B18C5 swap that some of you are familiar with. It's got about 70K miles on it, runs flawlessly, makes 178/130 on the dyno, could quite possibly propel my 1990lb. 1992 CX hatch into the high 12's as it is now, etc. etc.

The thing is I've been getting the itch to finally upgrade my car since it's been the same for over 5 years now, and I want to see what you guys think of the following proposals, and hopefully you guys can chime in with first-hand experience in the form of power, price, difficulty, etc. etc.

I'm thinking of the following swaps:

1.A Sell my B18C5 swap for about $5,000.00 locally with everything needed, then go K20A-R. I'm estimating the swap itself to be $5,900.00 shipped, and then I know all hell breaks loose with mounts, wiring conversion harness, K pro, hub adapters to run RSX axles, etc. etc. If anyone has real world total costs for all of the extra items needed I'd greatly appreciate that. I wouldn't skimp on better parts if it makes the swap more bolt-in or plug in. I'm guessing a total cost of $8,500-$9,000 perhaps?

1.B Do the same in selling my B18C5 full swap, but instead of K20A-R go with a K20Z perhaps and add an ITR or Quaife LSD to the RSX-s tranny.

Does anyone know if there are inherent differences with the K20Z that make it more of a pain in the *** to do thah the K20A-R or K20A2 swap? I've heard of a VSS issue, and possibly mounting bracket differencs, but anyone know for sure? i know it wouldn't pull like a K20A-R, but I've alays been a fan of low mileage, actual mileage USDM swaps from people I trust (Import Auto Salvage) as opposed to "we guess 20-30K miles" JDM swaps with unknown history.

2. Sell my B18C5 long block ( complete engine from intake manifold, cylinder head down to the block/oil pan) which I honestly have no clue what they go for!) and purchase a Euro R H motor and go H2B. I'm thinking it'd be a good bit cheaper than the K swap, but do you guys have an idea of how comparable power/speed wise a Euro R engine with a ITR tranny would be to a K20A-R? K20Z?

I work at a Honda/Acura repair shop that has had a past of doing swaps, etc. so the extra labor isn't a huge deal. I've got lifts, air tools, etc. at my disposal for the work needed. I'm not pulling the noob "money isn't an object" either - I could probably swing either option, but i do ant to be cost effective.

This would literally be the LAST sort of upgrade for this car. Once I do this that's it. I've been 100% happy with my car as-is with the B18C5 swap for the past 5-6 years, and honestly if I didn't do any of this swapping out I'd still be happy with the car as-is. I'm not the type of person who can't stop modding a car just because.

I know this is a borderline noobish topic, but I'm looking for personal testimonies on the highs and lows of going K20A/Z and Euro R H2B.

If you don't have anything to offer from personal experience or experience from working on any of the aforementioned set-ups, etc. then please don't worry about posting. I'd rather ths topic sink to the bottom of the pile than stay atop the forum with replies like "K20 FTW!" or "H2B is awesome my boy runs 12's y0!"

If anyone has viable 1/4 mile times, dyno sheets, etc. for any of the aforementioned set-ups I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance for the help!



<FONT SIZE="3">Lastly I'm still happy with the B18C5, but if I'm going to upgrade I want the engine to be 100% stock internals like my C5, so a build or boost is not my cup of tea. I do NOT want this to turn into a "just build the B18C5" or "boost is cheaper" because I've prided myself on having 100% OE reliable swaps in the past. I like my engines 100% bone stock internals as built by Honda!!! I want to be able to drive the car as hard as I want to for the next 10 years and I will not be swayed by any arguments for boost or building my B18C5!!!</FONT>

djessenz

Doesn't seem noobish at all! Bump for a soon to be very informative thread

Froth

The K20Z1(05-06 RSX-S) and K20Z3(Civic Si) do have issues with the VSS being a pain to function properly being a different style of VSS. The K20Z3 also has some issues with the shifter mechanism if I recall correctly. If you're going to do one of the K20Z's I strongly recommend switching the trans out for a K20A2 Trans or something similar.

My personal point of view for you would be to do a K-swap, I don't just throw things out there and say "OMG DO IT it's BADASS" or anything, so here's the reasons.

Firstly, Personally I'd stay away from the K20A because it's just so expensive for such a little performance gain. I have a K24 Frank in my EH3 and It will hands down beat a K20R flat out, not to mention I spent about $1500 LESS on my engine/transmission combination than a K20A. I'll break down the K24 Frank for you.

K24A1 Shortblock - $650 w/ under 40k miles. Not very hard to find, you can even find longblocks for under $1000. Out of all the K24 blocks, I find the K24A1 far superior for modifying due to several reasons.
-The K24A1 CRV block can accept an RSX-S head without modification unlike the Accord's K24A4.
-The K24A1 CRV block can accept an RSX-S Oil Pump without modification to the block OR pump.
-The K24A1 block has the same Crank Position Sensor as the RSX-S, no harness issues.

K20A2 head - $750. These can be had around the forums, eBay, Craigslist, Locally...basically anywhere you look. They require no modification to throw onto a K24A1 block. Price varies based on if you get a throttle body with it or an intake manifold.

Adding things like head gasket, Intake manifold if you wish to use a different one, throttle body usually gets you to the $1500-$1800 range. Far cheaper than even a TSX longblock.

I have a K24A1/K20A2 frank setup and I love every second of it. I drive the car 300+ miles a week and it never shudders for a second. Here's a Dyno after the car was tuned. This power was made using 100% OEM parts in the engine/transmission. Right down to the clutch.


217whp/184wtq - Note how flat the torque curve is.

Pros. K-swap:
- Newest technology. I-VTEC, VTC, Coil Packs, Timing Chain...etc.
- Fairly straightforward swap, I did mine in 42 hours. From pulling the D-series to starting up the K-series.
- Ultra reliable, I've had zero issues since the day the swap was completed.
- Easy to find low mileage motors, no worrying about how old/beat an engine is.
- 6spd transmission
- Loves Bolt-ons.
- Nearly every part used in a K-swap is an OEM piece, minus mounts and a few other things depending on how you do the swap.

Cons. K-swap:
- It's kinda expensive, you can do one for under $6500 if you know where to look...but that's as low as you'll get pretty much.

------------------------------

That being said, I'm not trying to put down the H-series here I just believe the K-series is better. I like newer technology, I like not having to use an adapter plate between my transmission and engine, I also like the larger displacement 2.4L under the hood. I debated between K and H for a long time myself, but the K-series is just hands down better in my opinion and I'm willing to pay the price of a K-swap to have the latest and greatest.

-Froth

P.s. - If you want to learn more, head over to K20a.org and search around. This is a link to the original post stating the exact setup of my engine: http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=31421

0HAMOTORSPORTS

I want to give you props for a very professional "proposal" with a very precise question.

Since you seem to want a very clean professial stock engine swap I would recommend the K20a-R over the K20z. The k20z is not worth the troubles if you have access to the k20ar. My reason being is that it is a more straightforward swap than the H2B. (I can already anticipate replies hating on that statement) The H2b setup will be very feasable swap with about a $500 investment over the selling price of your B18 longblock. I would ask around 2k for a legitimate low mileage B18c5 longblock. The H22 will cost 1000-1300 - add hasport mounts, adapter kit, clutch/flywheel , header, re-chip ecu and you will be covered. The k20a will require about 5k investment over and above the price you get for your b18 swap. full k20a-r changeover you say for 5900. add hasport mounts/ axles/ wiring harness, k-pro, header, fuel setup, shifter mount kit, etc...

The H2b will be MUCH cheaper and will be very torquey, However the K20a-r will be a much more "refined" swap if done correctly.

JV

Not going to play cheerleader, just going to post my own experience: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1575266

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
<FONT SIZE="3"> I like my engines 100% bone stock internals as built by Honda!!! I want to be able to drive the car as hard as I want to for the next 10 years</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the exact reason i went with the setup i have now. I'm 150% satisfied with the outcome and don't feel the need to modify it any further...

Plan B

whoa tom, i decide to check out h-t for the first time in forever and i see this, rad.

PhoeNix007EG

bump it up &gt;&gt;

B18C5-EH2

Sorry - haven't checked the topic since Saturday.

Okay first of all thanks for the input thus far. Let me reply individually:

Froth:

You set-up looks amazing. I'm sure that with that torque curve the car would be absolutely NUTS to drive! The issue I have with a CR-V block/Type S head is that I would have to place my trust in the head and parts to be in great condition, and to me I wonder why someone would have a great condition short block, and then a great condition cylinder head separate of each other.

I also like the concept of being able to purchase a complete engine that Honda assembled and it stays 100% virgin, from the factory. My B18C5 have served me extremely well for 6+ years now, and I believe it has all to do with it never being broken apart. I mean the freaking cam plug, cam sals, pan gasket, etc. have never once leaked oil!!! It's crazy.

I've also never been big on trying to round up various parts from various places. I'm a "one stop" shopper type of person, and I understand that will be impossible with any K swap, but if I can purchase my swap, mounts, and wiring harness from one place I'd much rather do that than have to round up a block here, head there, transmission elsewhere, swap parts elsewhere, etc. etc.

Combine that with my underlying feeling that the CR-V block wasn't really engineered to be revved above 8000rpm. I know the torque is crazy, and you probably don't have to ring it out to 8000rpm to pull well, but man I don't trust myself to not want to rev it out.

Again yours seemes to have worked out amazingly well, but we know how piecing together stuff works out, and it's not as 100% as finding a complete swap.

JV:

That's unreal. 230/158 from a stock internals K20A2 with only mods being IM, intake, header, exhaust, and Hondata?

Are those results typical? I mean if 230/158 is a standard to shoot for with your parts list then I would ditch the K20A-R deal and simply add an LSD to the A2 tranny. I live in the ATL area, so I'm assuming my issue would be no Jeff Evans here, but we have a few Hondata tuners in the area who are supposed to be really good as well.

I like the idea of being able to go USDM with exact, known mileage and also to know that the car was a rear or side impact, not a front end collision or rollover, etc. I have dealt with Import Auro Salvage in N.C and would love to get something low mileage, USDM from Larry Jr. there.

I know the price difference up front would save me like $2,800.00 if I stuck with an A2 versus a K20A-R, but $900.00 or so would have to go towards an LSD because once you have one (like in my current ITR trans.) it's very hard to go back to an open diff. That's still almost $2,000.00 that could go well towards the K-Pro, mounts, hub adapters (to run stock Type S axles), misc. parts, etc. etc.

So far K series has the upper hand IMO versus the H2B.

Any H2B users here with good results? I know it's probably a longshot to find someone with a Euro R engine and ITR tranny together, but it would be nice to see results from that set-up. I'm not really enthused about an adapter plate, but if the results were in the 200-220whp mark with bolt-ons and tuning like a K20A, and it was MUCH cheaper (which i'm not sure of honestly) then it might still be a viable option.

...then again where would I find someone willing to part with a nice Euro R engine longblock minus tranny? I know a lot of places don't like breaking up complete changeovers.

ukdmegg5

Euro R engine and ITR tranny would be a nice setup and half the price of a k

quicksilver1689

210-230whp depending on dyno, weather, ect is what i have seen come out of k20a's with i/h/e, kpro, even more with cams. The k24/k20 hybrid looks pretty promising. I have done research on the frank, high rpms on stock k24's doesnt look very heatlhy. math tells us that at 7900rpm k20as has a piston speed or 4,464 fpm, the k24 reaches 4,225 fpm close to 6500. at 7900rpm the k24 has piston speeds of 5,135fpm. Imagine spinning that over 8k which alot of people do. the s2k, b18c5, doesnt go over 5,000 fpm with there high redlines. Just some food for thought.

jdmcivicracer89

id get the euro typr r h22. me and my friend just installed his into his 98 coupe. toltal cost for everything was 5200.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Well dude, I know you dont like frankensteining or ripping apart motors. You'd rather do the same thing as me and just buy a good motor in the 1st place assembled by honda at the factory.

The K20R is insane. I've seen it first hand. The problem here is usability. You're going to spin tires like they're worthless. I'm sure you could slick up to use the car for drag racing. Or maybe use some drag radials and careful feet. I think that for road racing, with good footwork, you could definitely make it work. My friend has an I/H/E K20-R swap in his stripped out EG hatch. He spins well into 3rd. I once suggested (seriously) launching in 2nd.

Topsetup is a local shop. They had the K20 powered hatch that ran in the BMI video. I've seen this car in action in person at gingerman. He was at WMHM7 in july. The car is blazing fast.

The swap is expensive, but seems to be well worth it. You dont seem like you care about AC. But do you mind polyurethane mounts? I hate them for street cars. But on a race car, I guess i would like it.

The coolest thing about the swap is that you have a 11-12 second car that you can use as a daily and still get 30+ mpg. The K20 is also more tuneable than the older fixed cam timing motors. Bolt ons and tuning and other power parts put this motor into astronomical NA figures.

The Accord ETR swap gets close in stock form to a stock K20R. A speed shop owner that I'm kinda friends with owns a H22 ETR EG hatch. He said it ran like 13.0 - 12.8 out of the box or something. I think that the K20 and H22 ETR make the same torque numbers...but the H22 is less peaky. My friend's H22A (blacktop) 94 Prelude S was FFFFFAAAST. Unexpectedly fast. He beat my GSR by like 8 cars and counting. My S2000 only managed to beat his car by 2 lengths from a stop, and 1 length from a 15mph roll. The H22 has a really nice fat power band. From the 15MPH roll, he jumped almost a car on me right off the bat.


I think if you were looking to do a nice, Honda assembled motor with bolt ons that you could beat on for years and years, go K20R for sure in this case. The A2 would be a runner up. I think you'd be happier with the R, though. It doesn't cost THAT MUCH more. Remember when you compared your C1 to your C5? I think it'd be the same deal. You said you were 100X happier with your C5. Instead of F-ing around trying to get go fast parts for your K20A2 to make it perform like a K20R, just get the K20R in the first place. It'll end up being cheaper in the long run...and you get the red valve cover as a free bonus!! lol.


However, I dont know if you'll get $5k for your B18C5 swap. They go for less than that from motor distributors. What goodies would you be selling with it for $5k. It sounds a bit high.

Andyroo

friend did his swap, k20a-r into his EK. RBC manifold, $1200 headers, mugen twinloop, hasport mounts, fuel regulator, modified civic axles somehow, total cost was about 9-9500. put down only 200.38whp but ran a 12.08 qtr.

B18C5-EH2

Well, and trust me this isn't a for sale post within this topic, but since you asked I'm game.

First of all when I say "$5,000.00 for my swap" it would literally be turn key with everything needed to get it running in 1 day's time in an EG. EK? Someone could buy a jumper harness and do a fee extra touches of wiring and it'd still be a 1 or 2 day job tops.

75K B18C5 swap - no smoke, no noises, and not a single drop of oil leaked even from "trouble" spots such as VTEC valve, cam plug, front seals, or rear main seal - EVER
Brand new ITR tranny from local dealership with 5K miles - seriously NO grinds EVER!!!
Double diaphram ClutchNet p.p with 5K miles OE ITR clutch disc (gentler on tranny/final drives) - of course new OE rear main was installed at that time too
Brand new CV axles
AEM CAI for 99-00 Si
DC JDM 4-1 header
Skunk2 cam gears
TUNED Uberdata'd P28 ECU
Complete plug and play '98 ITR engine harness (add 3 wires if working with 93-95 non-VTEC EG chassis, ZERO if using 92 or 93-95 VTEC chassis)
CTR N1 race crank pulley
Aluminum ITR JDM a/c bracket
All mounts, with urethane inserts, all brackets
All necessary hoses/sensors
GS-R full double width radiator with main cooling fan

Sure ITR swaps go for $4,500ish online, but they can't touch the value of this turn key, guaranteed tuned and *** kicking set-up. I offer something no salvage company can - test drive/ride in the car the swap currently resides in. This isn't some guessing game, hoping the CR is good, or that the engine doesn't smoke, etc.

I mean I could lay out the individual prices for the sum of all parts being offered here, but hopefully you get the idea. I mean ECU tuning, 3 hours of dyno time to fine tune, brand new $1,850.00 ITR tranny, $300.00 header, etc. etc. I mean this is literally turn key ready.

I will probably even throw on a new timing belt, waterpump, cam seals, and crank seal while I'm at it. It's not due mileage wise, but time wise it's due. It of course will be 100% OE parts, and the work will be top-notch.

I see where you're coming from certainly, but from a logical point of view I don't know where $5,000.00 could be better spent from a swap-ready, 100% OE reliable stabdpoint with proven drivability and already tuned as well.

The more I type up the positives about my current set-up, and the more crazy intricate **** I see involved with the K swap the less and less I want to actually do it.



I've been trying to round up actual confirmed price listing and full parts listings for a K20A swap, but thus far it's so spread out everywhere. I've yet to find a fully comprehensive parts list.

Another thing on the K20A-R vs. K20A2 debate I understand the differences between the R and A2 are probably as much as my old B18C1 vs. B18C5 debate, I do, but the difference here is a **** ton more money. I've been pricing R vs. s swaps and so far I've got something like $2,800.00 difference, and the R won't have all of the misc. **** I need to make the swap easiest. I could "settle" for an A2 for almost $3,000.00 less, honestly. the difference between a B18C1 and C5 is only like $1,500.00 so logically IMO the C5 can't be matched for the $1,500.00 price difference.

...but the K20A2 is still pretty mind boggling. I think I'd be MORE than happy with 220whp and 6 gears. I would definately add an LSD too obviously. Plus the A2 seems to be much more abundant, and I could literally drive to a few different East coast places and pick my swap up in person, see the donor car, etc. etc.

I appreaicte the input though. I know it's frustrating to see someone ask for an opinion, you post yours and logcially it makes sense, and then I reply with "I don't think so" for your efforts. I do see your points, but for me the price difference is starting to look HUGE between the two.

I guess I'd have a better idea on if i could swing the R over the S if I knew EXACTLY what other parts and prices will be needed to get either running.

So far I've figured the following:

HASport mounts
HASport wiring harness
HASport ECT/temp sending unit inline hose adapter
Karcepts shifter box mounting kit
Karcepts radiator upper mount and overflow tank relocator kit
Aftermarket radiator
Hondata K Pro
DC header - again I want nice stuff, but can't see $1000.00 for a header
Possibly 3'' piping and new muffler?
***Traction Bar set-up with lower radiator supports built in***

From there I know I'm missing more ****. I saw a pretty extensive fuel return set-up parts list for Summit, but have no clue on pricing.

I've seen a hub kit to allow use of stock Type R axles with the HAsport mounts, but don't know pricing

I'm not sure what misc. hoses come to, etc.

Again I'm not trying to go bargain basement, but I'm also not rich. If I sell my swap and both of my motorcycles I could fund this project, but in the end I still have a wife to answer to if it gets ridiculous, etc. etc.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.

Froth

Completely understandable not wanting to go with a K24/20 frank for ultra reliability, I just wanted a crazy torque engine and that's the bar none cheapest way to attain it. I do myself have a hard time not revving it out to 8000+rpm and it has been there a few times. Redline is set at 7500rpm for every day use but I have bumped it to 8500 for several drag runs, the car is a blast to drive. An absolute earth shattering experience every time I peg it from 2nd-6th gear as it winds out to 135mph and would keep on pulling if I had more gear.

Some suggestions:
- For you, I'd say the K20A2 is your best bet, it's less torquey so it is a bit more "daily friendly" and you can very easily put a light EH2 hatch into the mid/low 12's on the right setup with a stock K20A2.
- Don't skimp on the transmission, my personal recommendation is to spring for the Civic Type R or RSX-R transmission with the 4.764 final drive and OEM LSD. I have the transmission on my K24 and it's without a doubt the best choice I ever made for the car. The gears are short, but not too short and with the extra revs from the K20A2 you could put even more use to the gearing than I can. The $1500-$2000 price tag up front might be scary, but it's worth it. I pieced my swap together for under $9000 even with the NPR3 Civic Type-R 6spd trans. The shorter 4th/5th/6th gears and Final Drive are WELL worth the money, as well as an OEM LSD. I still get 35mpg on my aggressively tuned K24 Frank even though cruising at 60mph I'm hitting 3k rpm.
- Go for the DC sports header to save some cash, There's been some testing done on the DC sports header and for the money you CAN NOT beat it. It was only 2-3whp lower than the DTR/SSR header and the torque was nearly identical as were the power curves. This is a great way to save some cash on a K-swap, I use a DC sports header myself and you can see by the Dyno chart it does not affect the car much if at all.
- DO NOT cheap out on the clutch, I put an OEM disk/PP in my K24 Frank and it's slipping 9k miles later. I don't much care because for me labor is free as I do it all myself and I paid $40 for the clutch/pressure plate. But do yourself a favor and get at very least a stage 2. I'd go for a Stg 3 or 4 myself, I'm replacing my OEM disk with a Clutchmasters Stage 4.

If you have any questions, I'm on AIM nearly every day. I'm also a professional mechanic with A LOT of K-series experience. My AIM name is available over on K20a.org if you need anything else answered as far as a K-swap goes.

Helpful link: http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20860
100% complete K-swap into EH2/EH3 parts list, wrote it myself and used it to piece my swap together. Nearly everything is listed there.

Good luck!
-Froth

JV

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
JV:

That's unreal. 230/158 from a stock internals K20A2 with only mods being IM, intake, header, exhaust, and Hondata?

Are those results typical? I mean if 230/158 is a standard to shoot for with your parts list then I would ditch the K20A-R deal and simply add an LSD to the A2 tranny. I live in the ATL area, so I'm assuming my issue would be no Jeff Evans here, but we have a few Hondata tuners in the area who are supposed to be really good as well.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

230/160...ish seems to be what most are getting out of these motors with the requisite bolt-ons, a good tune and an RBC manifold. K20R's only producing slightly better numbers.

Besides the LSD transmission, i don't see any great advantage in going with an R swap over an A2.

skunked

damn where you been stranger?

You know how I feel about this topic

Syndacate

Don't be a tool and go K.

Get a JDM F20B and slap a turbo on it - ****, for how much u wanna dump into that POS Stock *** K swap - spending 10 large for 200hp and all, you can fully build that JDM F20B block and run 500hp all day long w/o a single problem - and still have 3+ grand left.

It's a no-brainer.

0HAMOTORSPORTS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
<FONT SIZE="3">Lastly I'm still happy with the B18C5, but if I'm going to upgrade I want the engine to be 100% stock internals like my C5, so a build or boost is not my cup of tea. I do NOT want this to turn into a "just build the B18C5" or "boost is cheaper" because I've prided myself on having 100% OE reliable swaps in the past. I like my engines 100% bone stock internals as built by Honda!!! I want to be able to drive the car as hard as I want to for the next 10 years and I will not be swayed by any arguments for boost or building my B18C5!!!</FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't be a tool and go K.

Get a JDM F20B and slap a turbo on it - ****, for how much u wanna dump into that POS Stock *** K swap - spending 10 large for 200hp and all, you can fully build that JDM F20B block and run 500hp all day long w/o a single problem - and still have 3+ grand left.

It's a no-brainer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm thoroughly dissappointed in you with that reply

MR Rodgers

Id say go K. My lil bro has a K with stock internals, daily driven and its awesome. Its extremely reliable and never short on power when you need it. They are a lil pricey but if i had the cash i would do it in a heart beat.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

The K20A2 makes 220hp? I thought the K20A2 made 200, and the K20R made 220. You sure you dont have #s mixed up?

Well, if the price difference is really almost $3k, then the A2 is the obvious choice. I'm sure you can throw some K20R cams in there and some bolt ons and make over 220WHP with it easy.

Either way, you're buying the most advanced motor series Honda has ever come out with. lol and it really hurts to say that since I'm an F20C owner/operator.

Froth

Depending on tuner and the bolt-ons you can make between 205-225whp with a K20A2 and I've seen 230whp+ out of a K20A. It's all in the tune and bolt-ons.

-Froth

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The K20A2 makes 220hp? I thought the K20A2 made 200, and the K20R made 220. You sure you dont have #s mixed up? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Taken from JV in this topic earlier:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1575266

I about **** when I saw his numbers. Evidently it's more common than I thought...

Syndacate

Don't be, man, I wasn't saying it to be an *******. You're one of the few people in this forum that I have respect for, I wouldn't try to be an ******* to you.

Though you are asking for other peoples' opinions. The K craze is overplayed if you ask me, 8-10 grand for 200whp just isn't worth it. Maybe I'm stupid and the K puts out 200 special HP, but to me, HP is HP, now given NA HP is faster than FI HP due to turbo lag, I don't see how running 280whp through a GSR and ripping on Ks all day long for 1/2 the price of the K is "worse." Furthermore, how you can take an H22A or a JDM F20B, or a F22, F23A1, so on and so forth, and get forged low compression internals and run 5 or 600 HP all day on a stable, reliable build and still have money left over that you would have put into the K's swap. I'm obviously missing something here.

I got a friend that's doing a K swap, I'm not gonna say his name due to privacy but he's real popular here on H-T, and he can't finish his K swap b/c he can't afford it. It's in the car and all, but I believe his words are "It's gonna be a long time before it runs." They tap your wallet like a keg for what, 200//160?? Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

Though on the flipside, the K is the new "trend" - everybody who can afford one is doing it, it's like you're 14 and you have a joint - "everybody else is doing it." I fail to see the K as anything more than a trend. I beat a K swapped hatch from a roll in my camaro (509 built for RPM, not torque pushing 530//527 @ wheels) because he was messing with me. Now granted I had a good ton and a half over this guy, and granted he can actually make a trip without refueling 18 times, but the point is, he followed me into a dunkin doughnuts where I went to get some coffee, and started barking at me about how I must have cheated and used nitrous, I believe he used the words "my K20 shoulda whooped your slow *** V8" and then he kept rambling on all the way into dunkin doughnuts, and all the way out of duunkin doughnuts about how he wanted to meet me at a track so we could do this right, and it was a fluke, etc. etc. (I think this is when I decided I hated Honda owners) and finally I asked him how much HP he's putting down, and he said almost 200. Now at the time I knew nothing (at all) of Hondas, but I answered with, well what makes you any different than any other random guy with a single cam VTEC Turbo? He responded with "K power, idiot" - now to me that didn't mean anything, thought it was just some new VTEC or some bullshit, so I said whatever, sorry, I'll have to decline his request, I had more important fish to fry, and moved on with my life, and I got into my car as he's calling me a ******* ***** and every other name in the book and that was that.

So you might ask "well what was the point of that story?" - the question I asked even when I didn't know dick of Hondas - what's the difference between your special 200whp, opposed to anybody else with a turbo Z6? Turbo lag?? Fine. What's the difference between a K20 and a built GSR or ITR putting down 210hp? Why is all motor 205hp with a K a win while with a JDM F20B or an JDM H22A making 210, 215 all motor is a lose?

Explain that to me.

Then I go back to the OP, which was asking a question on what should you do. Like I said, K's are like pot, everybody's doing them. I'd swap one in there if somebody gave me all the parts for one, as 2.0L plus ~160ft-lbs of torque makes a very good daily driver...but would I spend 10 grand in swapping one? No.

I fail to see what makes it so much better than an all motor 210 or 220 out of any other motor. I also fail to see how people can justify spending 10 grand for 200hp.

So back to your question in asking what should you do, I'd go an H or F route, why? You can make more power there, plus less people do it, plus it's hella lot cheaper. Even a built turbo B can rip it up for 1/2 the price - but say you wanted to stay away from FI, as that seems to be your MO, then why can it only be the K? You can make well over 200//160 on a B, F, or H motor for 10 grand, so why are they all out of the question??

So i go back to my original comment which is: