WaryDriver

I changed my 98 Civic's D16Y7 timing belt again. After the first time I changed the TB, there was a noise and burn smell. The same noise and burn smell is happening with a brand new belt that is a different brand. The belt tension was more taunt than last time after getting a new tensioner and spring then doing the correct procedures to tension the belt. After changing for the second time, the noise, burn smell, and SMOKE came after running for 1 minute. For some reason the phone video does not show the smoke ALTHOUGH THERE WAS SMOKING FOR 5 MINUTES AFTER UNCRANKING coming from where the area I point to in the video, around where the valve cover's bottom right corner and from below or level to the PS pump. The smoke could have been coming from further below, but this is the only place the smoke was exiting- out from that hole between that valve cover edge is and the PS pump that I point to in the video. I tried tracking the smoke to where it was coming from but my light wasnt good enough and then it started to die down.

I do not know what is causing the noise, burn smell, and smoking. One thing I did was loosening all the V belts (PS, A/C compressor, alternator) to below tension. I had them all tensioned to spec but now they are barely taunt enough to not slip. That did not fix. Also removed valve cover and scanned it closely for a loose tool or whatever. Nothing was found loose in there. Timing of the cam shaft matches the crank shaft. Timing was checked more than anything in several ways throughout the whole process. Timing has never been lost. Only thing I haven't done like the procedures say is adjust valves after changing timing belt. Did not adjust valves. The shift lever was vibrating really bad immediately when and after I cranked, matching with the noise.

tony_2018

Either a dry oil pump or dry water pump....

edit: I just recall a similar incident on another car. I leaning towards a bad bearing on the water pump.

Former User

Get an engine stethoscope to pinpoint noise.

Does the noise disappear if you remove the alternator, A/C, and PS belts?

Might the smoke be from a power steering fluid leak from the pump?

tony_2018

I'm confused, you said the smoke was coming from the right of the video but you also stated it could be coming from the power steering pump area, that is to the left of the TB cover. Please clarify where the smoke is coming from.

TomCat39

Did you put the crank gear thrust washer in backwards and now it's rubbing and burning the bottom timing belt cover or something of the like?

WaryDriver

The smoke was only coming from one area. If youre standing in from of the car, smoke was coming from between the front, but far right edge of the valve cover and the PS pump. It was running up along the engine surface, not on the PS pump. So it was closer to the engine than the pump since it was running along the engine front surface. If you watch the near end of the video, after I see the smoke and uncrankd, then I point the camera to that area and say "There's smoke coming from here". Here is a diagram.



I didn't replace that plastic washer behind the crank gear. I didn't remove or even move the crank gear to ensure keeping the same timing as the old belt even though that was unnecessary it was one of the many things i did to make sure i didnt screw up the timing of this car.

When I cranked the car it was an awful repeating racket as you can hear. A very foreign, loud noise and vibration I could really feel when I happened to have my hand on the shift level in Neutral all the time of course.

I did not replace the water pump and of course not the oil pump.

No check engine light comes on inside the cluster.

Do you think I should crank again? There's obvioulsy something screwed up and friction is happening. It's a rough, hard repeated noise.

Is there a test that I can do to see if it's water pump bearing or not? Because I do not want to do this TB change procedure for the third time if I dont have to. Takes hours to even get to that TB belt theres so many things to pull off and loosen to get to the water pump or oil pump. How can I determine which one is the problem before I do guesswork like I did the second time thinking it was the belt tension? Where would I put the steresoscope to check if the noise is coming from a water pump bearing? ALSO THE SMOKE IS COMING UP FROM FRONT OF ENGINE NOT WATER PUMP AREA WHICH IS THE REAR UPPER CENTER AREA OF THE SIDE OF THE ENGINE. DOESNT MAKE SENSE THAT SMOKE IS COMING FROM FRONT OF ENGINE IF ITS THE WATER PUMP UNLESS THE NOISE AND SMOKE ARE UNRELATED. Water pump was working great before i did this TB change and everything was.

PLEASE HELP. THIS IS MY ONLY CAR.

TomCat39

If you never removed the crank gear then it should be sitting correctly... And just an FYI, it's not plastic, it's a very solid steal. On the older generation there is two of them, one on the front and one on the rear. Looks like the 6th gen only has the rear one due to the crank sensor ring on the front.

I would suggest pulling the crank pulley off so you can take the lower timing cover back off and see if you can see anywhere rubbing was happening.

WaryDriver

Yes, the new tensioner came with two of those big circlular spacer/guards/washers but on my car it dont remember having one in the front when I took off the harmonic balancer and bottom TB cover to get to the old TB and crank gear. Here is a diagram for my engine..


Hmmm... looking at this engine diagram has me thinking the smoke is not coming from the timing belt. If the timing belt was rubbing on ANYTHING, smoke would rise from where the upper cover was not reinstalled. NOT from the front of the engine just to the left of the orange dipstick! Even though it is close to the timing belt where the smoke is coming up from, the smoke should be contained in the bottom TB cover (its all bolted down and rubber seals are sealed with Hondabond sealant even) and rise where that cover ends which is where the upper cover should be!

Could the smoke be coming from inside where the valves are? The area the smoke was coming from, it was level with where the valve cover seals against the head. I couldnt tell if it was seeping out from there or coming from outside the engine.

So, it seems the smoke is coming from either...
1. inside where valves are ( which would be very bad I'd assume)
2) Just oil or something that dripped or had gotten on something getting hot (the headers were blazing hot after that 1 minutes of being cranked). I've been using oil and grease on threads throughout the two TB changes.

I'm thinking the smoke is coming from something irrevalent like #2 . But could be wrong. Question I have is how can I test this water pump to see if the noise is coming from it or what? When I spun the engine by hand CCW using a socket on the harmonic balancer, there wasnt this horrible noise at all. The water pump's gear seemed free spinning too when i put the belt on it I remember. Should I take another video and rev it up some to see if the noise gets worse or stays the same? What are some tests I can do?

TomCat39

Like RonJ said, get a mechanics stethoscope and pinpoint the noise, should take less than 2 minutes running to do.

I was thinking before that, a visual inspection of the lower timing cover might prove fruitful before running it again as it should be about the only area you took apart for a timing belt/water pump job.

If you don't find anything amiss from the work you did, then the stethoscope will tell you.

Also, the snippet I posted is from the diagram you posted, it only has one crank gear washer, I am well aware which manual is yours and which is mine (mine being a 5th gen 92-95).

tony_2018

Look seriously.........I think its about time you stop chasing smoke. Take it apart and see what the hell is going on in there.

WaryDriver

The plan for tomorrow is to remove all the V belts and even the harmonic balancer and inspect bottom TB cover for friction even though I dont think its the cover because I touched it when the engine was running didnt change tone of noise. Plus I removed it after last belt was doing all of this and wasnt burned. Then crank and listen more carefully with better lighting for a minute or so cranked. That will eliminate any of those things being the problem.

Could the noise be coming from the harmonic balancer? Because that is outside the TB cover. I will see tomorrow. Is it harmful to idle engine without a harmonic balancer? EDIT: Actually, I video'd bits and pieces of the harmonic balancer in action (have to watch carefully and look hard) and doesnt appear to wobble. Looks straight spinning and smooth spinning. The reason I thought of the harmonic balancer might be the problem is because of the VIBRATION being caused so much that my right hand on the shift level feels kind of like I'm holding onto a machine gun but not as intense of course. Could a water pump bearing cause this kind of vibration of the shift lever?

Wish there was a test for it being the water pump. Anyone know of a water pump test? Before I go order one, drain the good clean honda blue coolant that has always been used, install water pump, and that may or may not fix? I prefer knowing the problem or having a good suspecion before I fix something that doesnt need to be fixed. Unlike last redo I replacing a tensioner and stuff that doesnt need replacing because they werent what was causing the noise and vibration.

Caoboy

<p>PS pump is going bad or is not filled up enough.&nbsp;Every time the camera is near it you can hear the growling/whining of it. My money is on that.&nbsp;</p>

TomCat39

That makes a lot of sense too and is super easy to identify by just removing the PS belt and starting the car up. No noise or smoke etc, you've isolated it to the PS pump.

If there still is noise you continue taking it apart and inspecting.

WaryDriver

Progress was made troubleshooting this evening I believe..

Took off the PS belt hoping it was that. Noise remained exactly the same. PS pump reservior filled to MAX line and no bubbles or gargling inside the reservoir when engine running.

Took off every V belt so the harmonic balancer had no belts on it. No noise or vibration.

Reinstalled alternator belt. No noise noise or vibration.

Installed A/C compressor belt. NOISE AND VIBRATION RETURNED.

Loosened the A/C compressor belt. Noise remained.

Tightened the A/C compressor belt. Noise remained.

Loosened the A/C compressor belt. Noise remained.

Inspected the A/C compressor belt. Looks new.

Put a stethescope on various parts of the engine. Noise is loudest when put on the A/C compressor and A/C tensioner pulley bracket when engine is running. Then I remembered something... I lost a single bolt when undoing this tensioner bracket and could not find it on the garage floor or in engine bay when it dropped lose. Its one of the two bols that holds the A/C tensioner pulley bracket. So I went to junkyard to get another one. Could this lost bolt for instance being on top of the compressor be causing this kind of noise? I have a magnet wand that I wanded around every area it would reach on and near the compressor and where it could have fallen. No luck finding this lost bolt with magnet wand.

Turned on the air blower to level 1 inside car. Then mashed the A/C button. The noise changes tones and engine I can feel it taking the load of the compressor. A noise still occurs but it is not the same noise. A/C blows cold inside.

So, to me it seems there are three things it could be..

1. A/C tensioner pulley bearings or pulley.
2. The A/C compressor pulley bearings or pulley.
3. That lost bolt that fell in the vicinity of the compressor, where the noise is coming from.

The easiest thing to replace is the tensioner pulley and bearings, not the compressor's pulley and bearings.

How would y'all proceed? I plan to drive this car around tomorrow since the noise doesnt seem related to anything else but the A/C tensioner and compressor. Maybe the lost bolt is causing the noise and it will fall out when driving. Maybe the noise will go away if i drive it?

That is also the same area as the A/C compressor and A/C belt tensioner. Good observation, this was unnoticed by me what area the noise was coming from.

Here's a video with just the PS belt removed. P.S. Smoke is from the valve cover oil dripping onto exhaust headers. When reinstalled valve cover oil drips down straight down to exhaust headers.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

waiting for a bolt to magically fall out is a bad idea. find it.

tony_2018

Wow......I totally didn't think about the p/s not having enough fluid. Yeah it could make that sound. You'll need to pinpoint the leak. Damn.......hopefully the pump wasn't damaged.

Caoboy

<p>I didn't even think about the AC compressor.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Take off your belt and drive it for now, but you need to&nbsp;take off the compressor and pulley and look for that bolt. Maybe if your ac refrigerant/compressor oil is low it's causing the compressor to grind like that.&nbsp;</p><p>@RonJ is pretty good at e-diagnosing the AC system, or at least he can tell you what to do next.&nbsp;</p>

Former User

I assume that the noise occurs even with the A/C off. Is this correct?

Use the engine stethoscope to pinpoint the noise to either the A/C idler pulley or the A/C compressor pulley.

The missing part makes the idler pulley the prime suspect, but diagnose rather than assume.

tony_2018

^^Its coming down to this method again.

WaryDriver

The noise occurs especially when the AC is OFF. When I was driving today with the A/C belt on, I turned the AC on and the noise wasn't as bad as when I'm stopped or driving slow with the AC off. When I'm stopped and idling, and the AC button is OFF, that's when the grinding/grating noise and vibration you can hear in the videos is the worst. Each video I posted on this thread is when the AC was OFF. When I turn the AC on, the noise isn't quite as bad I suppose (It really changes tone) but still feel some vibration in the shift lever. I didnt get up to interstate speed today but it seems the faster I went with the AC on, the less noisy it was.

So, you think its the tensioner pulley bearings? What would you and everyone put their money on this time?

When i toggle the AC button on and off, on and off, I can really control the sound of the noise. Noise is more intense when the AC button has been turned OFF. Thats when you hear the same noise as both videos I posted.

Searched 3 hours for the lost bolt before I lost patience and drove.

Former User

Your questions will be definitively answered by doing this^. Post the outcome.

WaryDriver

Could not tell the difference in noise. They seemed equally loudest of any part of the engine. My stethescope is homemade though. Drove my car today with the A/C belt still on somewhere 20 miles and smelled like burned rubber or something when I'd come to a stop with windows down. Not to mention the horrible noise and people looking at me in the parking lot at me concerned about the noise. And when I'd kill the car and get out after parking, smellled horrible under the hood like burned something. Belts looked okay though.

Took off the idler pulley to hand spin it and see if the bearings were bad. Hand spun it and IT IS ROUGH SPINNING, THE SAME GRINDING/GRATING WHEN CRANKED I FEEL AND BARELY HEAR WHEN SPINNING IT. BAD BEARING(S).

Should I buy just the bearings or the whole pulley + bearings? Also, what brand should I get? There is DAYCO, Gates, and Honda Genuine. What brand makes Honda's bearings? I want the best quality idler pulley + bearings or just the best bearings.

Some thing else I noticed once I removed the A/C belt is that the A/C compressor pulley is has A LOT of play and can wobble it about 1/4 inch back and forth. Is this normal? I dont know a ton about A/C or compressor but i dont see why they would design it to have this ability to wobble.

Before I removed the belt we recorded a video of the noise. See video of me engaging the A/C on and off. See how the noise changes from a high grinding/clashing noise to a lower grating noise when the A/C was turned on. This was before I found the idler pulley bearings to be bad and before i took the belt off. Strangely, you cant see a wobble in the compressor's pulley. The person videoing did not get the idler pulley in view just the compressor pulley.


P.S. While I have experts on A/C listening to me.. Does my A/C compressor EVER need mainteance? Like oil added to it? I dont know anything about that.

P.S. #2 Why do I almost always have to double crank my car like that? If I haven't cranked it in more than a day I for sure have to double crank it. Fuel pump, filter? A trick I do is turning the key to the position before crank/start position and then again. This repumps fuel you can hear the fuel pump pumping when I turn key to position before crank each time. Doing to that position twice or three times I'll do depending on how long its been since Ive driven.

Former User

This^ was the issue. A good, basic engine stethoscope costs about $5 at Harbor Freight Tools.

Check for a matching bearing at the Sears Hardware store.

The pulley bearing is almost surely bad.

Only if it's leaking refrigerant.

WaryDriver

Replaced the entire idle pulley with a brand new DAYCO 89029 "Light Duty Idler tension pulley". Not just the bearings.

Then, I put on a brand new BANDO 4PK820 belt made in Japan. I got rid of the old A/C belt (which was new but I wanted to put a new one on since they are cheap and Im trying to get rid of the noise).

Reinstalled the PS pump and belt.

Cranked the car, and the exact same noise was back happening again. I couldn't believe it. See previous video of how the noise is when A/C is turned on and off. That same noise behavior is happening again now. Ive been driving all week without an A/C belt, just an alternator and PS belt and no noise.

Some thing I noticed and I dont know if its significant to anything was that the A/C belt was the hottest of all the belts after being cranked a few minutes and turning the A/C on and off. Slightly hotter than alternator belt and a good bit hotter than PS belt.

So its not the idler pulley. I reinstalled the new one twice. First tightening the pulley bolt first.Next time tightening pulley bolt last. The pulley bracket is firm. The belt tension on the A/C belt is snug and the correct tension (even though I've played with the tension, loosening and tightening slightly out of spec). I even have a belt tension gauge. So, I know its not the belt tension causing this noise.

Not the idler pulley.
Not the idler pulley bracket.
Not the belt tension.
Not the belt.

So, it seems to me the noise has to be something to do with the A/C compressor. I have no idea how to determine what it is without just replacing random things. Can any of you tell by the noise behavior during the previous video when I turn the A/C on and off, on and off again and again?

Can you make a list of what could be causing that noise? Or, a list of what you would do next?

NOTE: A/C blows cold when the A/C button is engaged. It is the noise and vibration that's the problem. This noise and vibration changes (see video) when A/C is turned off and on. It's a higher pitched clashing noise when A/C is off and switches to a deeper/lower grinding/grating noise the A/C is ON.

NOTE(2): The compressor pulley has a slight play. See the small space between the red/orange and very outside metal. It is not near as big of space as I'd said in a previous post. It is only like a millimeter. See pic when I'm pulling the pulley toward me to create that space. EDIT: I've now learned the outer metal disc is called the front clutch plate that pulls inward when the AC button is engaged. So, it seems this spacing IS NORMAL after all!


Youre talking about the compressor pulley bearings? Is this noise possibly being caused by bad compressor pulley bearings? My next step would be to remove the compressor pulley and hand spin it. The A/C is working, so the compressor is working. It's just a noise being caused by something. So i think it's the compressor pulley bearings or something. I don't know anything about the internals besides that there is a clutch and pulley+bearings so what else could it be?

P.S. Is it okay to drive? Or do you think whatever's wrong like bad bearings or whatever going to cause the belt to heat up a lot and damage? Or damage the compressor or something..? EDIT: No i dont think its okay to drive now that I smell rubber burning when cranked a few minutes. I think the pulley is locking up when the noise is occurring.

EDIT: To simply things, I'd like to know what to order. This compressor, its clutch, pulley, and everything related to the compressor has 200,000 miles and is the factory from when the car was manufactured in 1998, '97 or whatever. The car has been used exclusively in the South where summers are hot so has been used hard during summers. What is the lifespan of a compressor, should I go ahead and replace everything since it is so old? I dont what to replace clutch assembly and then the compressor dies from age. I'm not getting any of this from the junkyard because i want new compressor pulley bearings regardless. 1.) I can order just new bearings for $10 and hammer out old compressor pulley bearings then hammer in the new bearings. 2.) I can order a new AC clutch assembly "kit" which comes with a new pulley+bearings, clutch, and other related parts for $80. 3.) I can order a whole new compressor assembly for $120 that contains everything (clutch, pulley, everything). Before I order one of these, I would like to know if anybody can tell what is almost for sure is causing the noise. It seems to me you should put your money on it being the compressor pulley bearings or clutch. I can't even get this pulley off without buying or making a special holder tool. Else I'd go outside and unbolt it and hand spin the pulley to see if the same noise is created.

Something I know that could be irreverent info but is a correction to when this noise and vibration started happening. This noise and vibration happened when driving BEFORE the timing belt change on a road trip coming off interstate. I shifted into Neutral coming to a stop sign and then all of a sudden in Neutral when I had my hand on the shifter the GRIND/GRATING noise comes all of a sudden out of no where and the shifter vibrated my hand intensely then kept on. Then I pulled over and found that the alternator belt had a strand broken in the center. So i thought the noise was coming from that which was false. Then proceeded to drive the rest of the 130 miles on interstate. Even though that belt had the loose strand, the noise was coming from whatever is this, not the alternator belt. Also, the condenser fan 20A fuse was blown (don't know if that's revelant info either). There was a strong burning smell on that road trip when I opened the hood. Could bearings themselves cause a horrible burning smell? It actually smelled more like rubber burning so maybe that compressor pulley was locking up and burning my A/C belt! Even after running my engine for a few minutes I noticed that same rubber burning smell with this new belt. So maybe this noise isnt somehting I should ignore and drive with since the noise is from bearings or something causing intermittent compressor pulley lock ups.

Former User