eselcarson

1999 Civic LX 1.6L SOHC (4spd auto)

This weekend I put a new timing belt info my wife's Civic and everything went well execpt an engine knock after it was all done. Nothing was wrong with the car prior to the replacement but it did have 101K on it so it was time. I've rebuilt a Legend completely so I've done a timing belt before in a Honda motor (so I would like to think I know what's going on).
I actually used a post on this forum to identify TDC on the crank and cam (why are there multiple marks on Honda pullys???). I rotated the crank several times to make sure everything was lined up after applying tension to the belt. The car now has just as much power as before and runs very nicely except for some knock that occurs once it is warmed up and the throttle is over 1/2. This will occur slightly as idle (~500RPM, is this low?) when you step on the gas hard, but it is much more prevalent when climbing a hill just before it downshifts. The knock will go away after ~3500-4000RPM, after that it sounds great. Any suggestions? Is it true that if the timing is off by 1 tooth that the combination of sensors within the distributor and the on the crank will produce a check engine light? Someone tell me that I can just take out a fuse for 5 seconds and my problems will be fixed...

b16a3delsol

drive it a little it might just go away. but if it gets worse than just run away you have somehow done something very odd while changing the timing belt.

eselcarson

I saw on this forum that people thought the tensioner spring was not quite strong enough for doing the job, and that it should be helped along. I did use a screwdriver on the pivot arm of the tensioner to snug it up a little. I believe that the belt should deflect 1/4" under a ~22lb load, and it does. If the scale in my fingertip is off could a tight timing belt cause engine knock?
I didn't drive this car much but the idle speed seems low (~500RPM). One thing I do notice is that if I get in the car and drive it cold I hear no knock until it gets up to temp.
"drive it a little it might just go away. ", I would do just that but the car was given to my wife by her parents and we plan on surprising them and giving it back. If the knock doesn't go away I don't want to surprise my in-laws with a repair bill (and I don't want to be working on it myself).

Thanks

slo_hatch

could it have possibly jumped time?

EE_Chris

Have access to a timing light? That'll tell you real quick if it's off a tooth or not.

If the belt were too tight, you'd be hearing a hard screeching instead.

eselcarson

To be honest I didn't tear it back open yet to see if the the marks still line up. My legend had access holes for both cams to check timing, but I guess a timing light works just as well...

Has anyone here had a timing belt off 1 tooth and not had the check engine light come on?

B18C5-EH2

Sounds very much like the belt is off by one tooth.

Pull the valvecover off, line the crank pulley timing mark up with the lower timing cover, and then check the cam pulley to see if the timing is off.

If the timing is off then you may be able to simply slide the t-belt off the cam gear, rotate the cam to line up the timing mark on the cam gear, and then slide the belt back on. If the belt is too tight to do this then unfortunately you'll have to tear it back apart, line everything up, then rest the tension on the belt.

...and the CEL won't always come on when the timing is off badly enough to cause pinging/detonation under load.

eselcarson

Do you feel that it is necessary to provide extra tension (above and beyond what the standard spring does)?? If not this should be easy...

B18C5-EH2

You can get the slack out of the front of the timing belt (side that faces the front of the car) and then gently pull on the backside of the belt when you tighten the tensioner. Unfortunately it's a feeling type thing that isn't easy to explain via phone, internet, etc.

eselcarson

I checked the timing belt and it was dead-on. I noticed on this forum that someone had suggested lining the marks on the cam to the top surface of the of the head. This would have been about a tooth different than the way I did it by lining up the marks on the cam with the arrows in the timing cover marked POS. If the correct way to align the cam is to avoid centering marks with arrows, some Honda engineer needs a smack...
I'm convinced now that the timing belt is correct and that something else is causing the knock. My father tried convincing me of the obvious, a bad knock sensor (or signal). I didn't even consider it until I noticed where it is, directly above the oil filter.
The symptoms are as follows:
-Start the car cold and it runs perfect, starts quick and idles smooth @~1200RPM
-While driven (right away) the car accelerates perfect and sounds great.
-Once the engine gets to temperature the idle drops to 400-500RPM and causes a slight vibration in the car. When in Park or Neutral the gas can be applied gradually and no knock is heard. When the throttle is put to 3/4 or full a couple knocks are heard but then sounds fine. While driving very conservitively on a level grade no knock is heard. Any time the car is accelerating with 1/2 throttle (or going uphill at 1/2 throttle) the knock is always there. I noticed that if the engine is knocking I can floor it and the knock goes away, even before the RPMs increase.
How often do knock sensors go bad and is there any way to test them?

.Ry

Well first you need to find out what the CEL is for. Refer to the FAQ at the top of this forum. You should used the marks on the cam pulley and lined them up even with the top of head. Then made sure the crank pulley was TDC. Using the arrows on the plastic piece are hard to do. I lined up the head with the lines on the cam pulley and had NO problems. I just finished my TB a week ago so its fresh. I also had a knock sensor go bad, but they do not knock when they go out. They only listen for knock. Make sure your engine mount is right, and everything else you took off is tight. Are you sure the engine is knocking and not so much something else? So if I were you I would pull off the valve cover and take and line those notches up to the head. Then make sure the crank is TDC, if the cam pulley has "UP" on top and the lines match up with the crank TDC look behind the cam pulley. The top tooth from the cam pulley should be straight up, if its not it may be a tooth off. Or you could use a timing belt. You CEL could be the CKS sensor? The sensor you take off down by the crankshaft sprocket. Did you get that back on? Find out what that CEL is for and get back to us. I would be willing to give you my phone number in a PM to help get this straight. What state do you live in?

Most people who are off a tooth DO NOT have a CEL after.

Link to CEL checker: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1901557

B18C5-EH2

The knocking you are describing sounds 100% like a timing issue - no two ways about it.

I'm looking at page 6-20 in the actual honda Factory Service manual for 1996-2000 civic and it specifically says to line the TDC marks on the cam gear level with the cylinder head surface while the "UP" on the gear is pointing straight up.

Some engines have one simple mark to line the gear up with on the inner plastic timing cover, but evidently this is not one of those engines according to the book. Line the two marks up flat with the head surface.

...also of course you want the WHITE mark on the crank pulley to also be lined up with the timing indicator notch/tab etc. before you check that the cam gear timing marks are flush with the head deck.

Honda did a retarded move on the 92-95 Civics by having a very visible timing mark on the plastic inner timing cover where you only lined the cam gear mark up with it on the D16Z6 VTEC engine, but according to them the non-VTEC engines were supposed to have the two level marks on the cam gear lined up with the head surface much like the book says yours should be. It's very easy to confuse if you use the two marks lined with the head method, or the one mark lined up with the timing notch on the inner cover method.

I don't think the D16Y7 engine has a knock sensor

When I look up the flowchart for the code "P0325 Knock Sensor" in the book it only lists the D16Y5 HX with auto tranny, the D16Y8, and B16A2 Civics. There is no mention of the CX/DX/LX D16Y7 non-VTEC.

However there is a CKP sensor that can easily be damaged when doing a timing belt job because the wires go through the lower timing cover and if the protective rubber grommet isn't prefect then the wires get chafed by the alternator belt. The CKP is a crank position/fluctuation sensor and could very well cause running order issues with the car.

...but it should be throwing a check engine light and a code

eselcarson

It's raining now, and my boss let me borrow his diagnosic tool. My 2.3CL has a connector under the ashtray but I'm having trouble finding the one in the 99' civic LX. Once I find it I'll see if it will tell me anything.
Words typed on this forum can't express the feeling I'm having now after I saw "WHITE mark" on the previous post...
My 87&88 Legends had on their crank pulley something like 2 red, 2 white, and 2 blue marks distributed all over the circumference. I was working with a Helms while working on that project and it didn't even say which mark was TDC.
The civic has on it a group of three marks with the middle one being red (these are ~1/8" apart). The timing cover has on it a "open sight" (like a firearm) and the back "dovetail" lines up perfectly with the uncolored marks on each side of the red mark. This set of features looked much more inviting than the WHITE MARK 10° DOWN THE PULLEY!!!!!!!!!
I should have done what I did on the Legend, take cylinder #1's spark plug out and rest something on the piston, crank it over by hand and watch to see what color is the winner...
Can I get a second opinion before I kiss my Saturday goodbye???

"What's the password?...New England Clam Chowder."
"Is that the red or the white?"

eselcarson

To answer a couple other questions/comments:

There is no check engine light on.
I was very nice to the crank position sensor and put it back just where I found it.

The cam TDC marks still bother me. There are two arrows on the inner timing cover plastic marked POS. I assume that these stand for "position" but they may just be the popular acronym...
When the cam is rotated both of these line up (at the same time). This isn't a matter of mearsuring something from two different reference points, or comparing two different methods of doing something. If you use the Deck and not the marks in the plastic the cam is at a different location by 1 tooth.
The red mark, the "extra" TDC cam arrows, anyone know why these things exist??

.Ry

Soo yes your Saturday is shot. Take it all apart. At least you know what you are doing!! When the lines on the cam pulley are dead even with the head leave it there. The UP should be UP! Then before taking off the crank pulley bolt and pulley rotate the crank until the white park can be seen looking straight down through the "Gun Sight" you described. When everything is lined up put the belt on and reassemble. Once you get the lower timing cover back on check to see if the white line is still in the sights. Then continue to reinstall. If you want to make sure its running right. Try putting the alternator and valve cover back on and secure the car the best you can. Carefully turn it on and see if you can reproduce the knock. It is safe to do this because I just did to make sure everything was right before installed everything else.

eselcarson

Thanks to all that took the time to listen and reply.

I just got back on to post another thought. When I was trying to determine if the red or white mark is TDC I saw an arrow cast into oil pump cover. When the the red mark is lined up with the "gun sight" there is a clear mark on the notched plate that is on crank timing gear (the plate that the crank position sensor reads) that lines right up with that cast in arrow.
Hearing what is said on the forum here about the red and white marks, and how it explains the symptoms I'm having, I don't doubt what is said is correct. I simply want to know what these other marks are for...

Thanks Again,

S.L. Carson

87' Saab 900S 60-175K
87' Saab 900Turbo 60-300K @16.5PSI
87' Legend 5spd
88' Legend L Auto (parted out)
98' 2.3CL 5spd

marshun

if yuo change the timing belt and it starts up but it soudns fucked, you should turn it off immediately and then check timing again. if yuo rev it or drive it then yuo run the risk of ******* up more **** in the motor.

good luck

.Ry

Oh boy, I can only give you what I know. The white mark is TDC. The other red marks are additional timing marks. The middle red line is the stock ignition timing which is 12degrees BTDC, and the other two are used to advanced or retard the timing, and are used as guides to help set ignition timing for whatever you are doing.

EE_Chris

White mark = TDC
3 Red marks = stock timing +/- 2*

For the Y7, it is 12* like .Ry said - but for the B16A2 in the 99 Si, it's 16*.

eselcarson

What is "stock" timing? and why don't I want my stock civic set to it? Is this what the distributor is set against for warm up?
Two hours and my car is fixed, I set it to the white mark and the deck. Thanks to everyone that gave their input.
I've got a 2.3CL with 110K, anyone know what color marks I should look for?? This is a SOHC V-tech (H23A??), I imagine there is nothing about the v-tech that I should worry about but if anyone has any advise I will gladly take it.
What Honda model and year share this engine? I live in upstate NY and it's a 35 minute drive to the Acura dealer, so if I know what honda models share the engine I can get parts a little easier.

EE_Chris

Who said you shouldn't run stock timing? You asked "I simply want to know what these other marks are for..."

If you had the "stock" engine for a particular car, you'd have the engine that came in it from the factory, agreed? So if you're running "stock" timing, then you're running whatever timing value that the motor came from the factory with. Is it 12*? Is it 16*? Is it something else? I don't know - but I can also tell you that if I needed to set the timing on my motor and knew nothing of a particular 'number' to set it to, I could use those 3 red marks to get the job done...because those 3 red marks represent stock timing.

On a D16Y7, those 3 red marks happen to correspond to 12* +/- 2*.
On a B16A2, those 3 red marks happen to correspond to 16* +/- 2*.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eselcarson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is "stock" timing? and why don't I want my stock civic set to it? Is this what the distributor is set against for warm up?
Two hours and my car is fixed, I set it to the white mark and the deck. Thanks to everyone that gave their input. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Awesome. Glad to hear it worked out.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've got a 2.3CL with 110K, anyone know what color marks I should look for?? This is a SOHC V-tech (H23A??),</TD></TR></TABLE>

It shpuld actually be an F23A. 2.3L SOHC VTEC. An H series is a DOHC engine.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I imagine there is nothing about the v-tech that I should worry about but if anyone has any advise I will gladly take it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nah there's nothing different about a VTEC engine that makes it different from a non-VTEC counterpart really - when we're discussing timing belt jobs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What Honda model and year share this engine? I live in upstate NY and it's a 35 minute drive to the Acura dealer, so if I know what honda models share the engine I can get parts a little easier.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The parts that you need to do a 2.3CL belts and waterpump job can be ordered for a 1998 Honda Accord 4 cylinder LX or EX.

Here's the parts list that my shop uses to do this job the right way:

Timing belt
Balance belt
Waterpump
Alternator/compressor belt (one belt drives the a/c comp. and alternator)
P/S belt
Cam seal
Crank seal
Countershaft seal
Crank seal
Gear reduction o-ring (for rear balancer)
Countershaft seal retainer

The 2.3 engine has a lovely balance shaft that makes that job twice as annoying because not only do you need to make sure that the timing belt timing is in time, but now you've also got a balance belt that must also be kept in time, or the engine will run rough/vibrate/and be noisy if it's off. Those balance shafts are really bad about easily spinning if you bump them and resting 180 degrees out.

Let me look up the timing marks, etc. and I'll get back to you.

eselcarson

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EE_Chris &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who said you shouldn't run stock timing? You asked "I simply want to know what these other marks are for..."

If you had the "stock" engine for a particular car, you'd have the engine that came in it from the factory, agreed? So if you're running "stock" timing, then you're running whatever timing value that the motor came from the factory with. Is it 12*? Is it 16*? Is it something else? I don't know - but I can also tell you that if I needed to set the timing on my motor and knew nothing of a particular 'number' to set it to, I could use those 3 red marks to get the job done...because those 3 red marks represent stock timing.

On a D16Y7, those 3 red marks happen to correspond to 12* +/- 2*.
On a B16A2, those 3 red marks happen to correspond to 16* +/- 2*.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree, the car has it's original engine and has no mods to it (stock).
The 3 red marks are what I did set it to and caused an engine knock.
I reset the timing belt by one tooth and set the crank pulley to the white mark.
The car runs fine.
I still don't know what the red marks are used for...

.Ry

The red marks are used to set ignition timing. When you use a timing light you hook it up to the spark plug wire, and set the timing light to a degree. When you aim the light down on the crank pulley the light should come on when it hits the middle red line if you set the timing light to the 12* setting. It comes on because when you hook it up to the wire it senses the igniting signal and thus lights up. If the light does not come on when the middle red line comes around then you are out of time. You have to follow another procedure to actually adjust the timing.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .Ry &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The red marks are used to set ignition timing. When you use a timing light you hook it up to the spark plug wire, and set the timing light to a degree. When you aim the light down on the crank pulley the light should come on when it hits the middle red line if you set the timing light to the 12* setting. It comes on because when you hook it up to the wire it senses the igniting signal and thus lights up. If the light does not come on when the middle red line comes around then you are out of time. You have to follow another procedure to actually adjust the timing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Bingo.