paco_sinbad

(Sorry for the confusion and being a n00b, LMK if I'm doing something wrong. Sorry I misstated in the title CKP, meant CYP.)

I have a B16A2 in a 1996 del Sol VTEC. I just got the car a few days ago for a very cheap price, with the CEL on. Was told there was a code for the CKF, and that's what was causing the issues. The car runs fine. No problems, VTEC actuates OK, overall seems to have no issue. 144K miles.

Well, there are actually four codes in the system, in order: P1381, P1259, P1336, and P0141. P1259 is a VTEC malfunction; the owner just replaced the VTEC solenoid so I have not had this issue and assume he has not cleared the code. ( He ran with the CEL on for the time he owned it :/ )

I cleared the codes, idled the car to warm, drove a bit, and could not get any of them to return. I have a used Helm manual coming in soon to help me with this little restoration project.

I assumed P1336 is the code he was talking about; however I am also seeing P1381. Searches on these codes indicate intermittent failures of cylinder position and crank fluctuation sensors, which I have read are in two completely different locations, one near the distributor and one near the crank? I did a search, and most people seem to have these problems independently. I am confused. Is there a fault that would cause both these failures? An actual misfire? I am going to order both CKP and CKF sensors, and replace them both, but I'd like to get ahead of other problems that might be causing this so I can fix them too.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Former User

^There doesn't seem to be problem, so what are you looking for?

paco_sinbad

Well, it's an "intermittent" issue. According to the owner before this one, he had a mechanic look at it, "fix" it, and then the code returned some time later. I'd prefer to see if I can fix the intermittent issue by replacing the most common point of failure, and then diagnose if it returns again.

Basically I am not sure that I trust the car's previous maintainer. The guy that I bought it from seemed cool, but he had to do an extensive amount of work to get it to be reliably driveable. I'd like to take this on an extended road trip, so anything I can likely get ahead of so I'm not in limp mode four hours away from home is worth doing.

Former User

You need to wait for your current non-problem to turn into an intermittent problem as diagnosis is pointless until a problem pops up. Otherwise, you're left randomly throwing parts at the car. I don't see a tech forum helping you do that.

94EG8

The CKF sensor is bolted to the oil pump near the crank. Is the block stamped B16A2 or just B16A or B16A3? JDM or OBD1 engines wont have a CKF sensor. The CYP sensor is inside the distributor housing.

If someone installed the timing belt off a tooth you'd see both codes.

You can't order the CYP sensor, it's part of the distributor and not available separately. Check your wiring before you buy anything, check your timing as well. Pull the distributor and check the bearing inside, when it starts to fly apart you'll start getting CYP/CKP/TDC sensor codes.

paco_sinbad

I gave it a while. The only code I could get to come back was P1336, so the CKF sensor appeared to be a real issue. Anytime I'd clear it, it would come back within a few minutes of driving. Replaced the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, etc. out of paranoia from previous owner, and bought a CKF sensor to fix at the same time since it was cheap.

The old CKF sensor in the engine was physically smashed/dented and the CKF little mounting post was broken off. I am curious whether or not an old timing belt let go at some point; the one that was on there was a Dayco that looked to be in very rough shape. Also, the CKF wiring was not properly channeled. Now that timing is back together, P1336 is gone for now! Yay!

However, now P1381 is being thrown. The car will start and idle cold, however once it warms up it idles at 250-300rpm and won't restart easily once hot (it took be about 5 tries. The car appears to spark, you'll hear it burn, and then it dies.) It appears this is a common issue when the distributor is bad. I have not seen this code *at all* until after the CKF sensor + timing replacement. Car does not go into limp mode or anything and it is the only fault the car is throwing now.

I have a Helms manual now and am going to follow the diagnosis procedures for P1381 once my multimeter comes in. Seems the next part I will need in this procedure is an entire distributor most likely. Do any of you have experience with this code? I am surprised I have not seen it at all until now that the CKF is working, but I know the sensors work somewhat "in harmony" with one another. Timing appears OK. ECU shows 16 degrees; the timing belt is on properly with no skipped teeth.


Edit: This H-T post is kind of interesting, as it is a similar problem to what I'm having. I assume I wouldn't have thrown P1336, though, if a CKF bypass had occurred and then I fixed it?

Former User

You earn a tech forum merit badge for this fine work.

As you said, Ohm test the CYP sensor and its 2 wires from the ECU connector. Post the results when you have them.

paco_sinbad

Heh, thanks.

I should have the meter by Thursday, but probably won't get around to getting to testing this until Saturday. I'll update as I have news. I have found tons of HT threads on this topic and nobody has updated them with resolutions.

Former User

Of little consequence because your multimeter should yield the answer.

Former User

Did you already visually inspect the 2 CYP sensor wires at the distributor and ECU connectors?

paco_sinbad

Literally just looked at the ECU connectors. It's dark, but it looks OK from what I can see now -- I went to look to see if perhaps someone had used quick splices at the ECU harness for a "CKF bypass" which wouldn't surprise me. I have not looked at the distributor yet in any detail, but the wires didn't appear noticeably broken when I looked earlier.

I'll give it a better visual inspection this weekend. Like you said, the multimeter will hold the answer here, and I don't need to drive the car anytime soon, so I'll wait until I have the time + space to do a full diagnostic on it. Thanks for your help.

Edit: What's the best/nearest "body ground" for checking continuity from this sensor? The radiator support?

paco_sinbad

Got the multimeter out, pulled the plug, and put the multimeter leads between the proper pins for CYP on the male side (the one that leads into the dizzy.) Read 384-387 ohms, consistently. Maybe oddly, I read the same for the CKP and TDC sensors within the distributor too for kicks. Same resistance values, somewhere between 384-440. All too low.

According to the Helms manual, that means it's the distributor, as it should be within 500-1000 ohms. I have a new distributor on order, so I will get that one, test its resistance, and get it on the engine when it comes in early next week. For anecdotal confirmation, this guy on Team Integra had the same symptoms which went away after replacing the distributor.

Note: I'm seeing elsewhere that resistance is 350-700 ohms. My '96 del Sol Helms manual says "Is there 0.5-1.0kΩ?" which is definitely no.

Former User

You Ohm tested from the ECU connector? If so, now short test (continuity to body ground) both pins.

paco_sinbad

Nope. I followed this flow chart:

Yep. Moving on.

Looking at the chart, it says to test pins 4 and 8 on the male connector from the distributor. I tested resistance between the pins. Got 384-385, so the answer is no.

Therefore, according to my troubleshooting chart:

I can scan in the page if you want to see. It makes it sound like I should stop here. Should I be testing to the ECU connector, and continuity?

Former User

I assume you randomly pulled your troubleshooting tree from a Google search, because it's not for your car.

By the way, your Ohm test tells you that the CYP sensor is fine.

Former User

Post the cover page of your manual, and also the CYP sensor circuit troubleshooting pages.

paco_sinbad

Not quite sure what to say here, because if what you say is correct my manual contains a misprint, or I'm looking in the wrong place. Here are photos of the pages:







You should be able to click through to hi-res. I bought the manual directly from Helm Inc.

EDIT: Added the next page of this tree.

Former User

350-700 Ohms is what I have always seen for Civic/Del Sol distributor sensors:



Your readings fit with this^

Seems like a manual missprint, though it would be nice if somebody could verify.

paco_sinbad

I have absolutely no idea why the difference exists. I will follow the test battery to see if I have a problem somewhere else as well, but I'm failing the current flowchart I do have for my car.

Former User

Based on your readings, I would assume missprint.

Now move to the ECU connector and repeat Ohm test, and also short test.

94EG8

Something is screwy with that flowchart. 350 - 700 Ohms has always been what I've seen in the civic manuals and they use the same distributors at the Del Sols. There have occasionally been misprints in the service manuals.

Former User

Very true.

paco_sinbad

I will make a note of this.

The test leads on my multimeter are too large to fit in the ECU pin holes. Should I put the leads into the wire side? Seems risky. Can I run some wire/pins out from the ECU connector female side?

Former User

Either way is fine.

paco_sinbad

Well, I found the problem. Someone has cut and spliced a bunch of different wires near my ECU; they were deep up in that little black wire raceway and I didn't notice. Taking a few photos.