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Regarding the oil selection, I searched different markets here but no one was selling the PAG oil in any viscosity number most were having the POE oil like the Uniqema Emkarate RL 100 and Suinso SL100. Due to the fact that POE is sort of universal oil used in R12/134a and also in R22 systems.
Apart from these I also found the ND8 oil equivalent to PAG 46 but that was not original. Finally found the sanden SP10 from some other city and bought it through a courier service.
To my surprise this new sanden SP10 is not the regular PAG type it is in fact Dephne Hermetic oil PS. I did some search over the internet and found that DH oil is actually developed by Idemitsu kosan Japan. The packaging is in 250 ml tin bottles and was way expensive, the price of this 250 ml bottle was equivalent to the price of 1 liter bottle of all oil brands availble out there.
Double end capped is a better PAG. I've never seen POE in a viscosity other than 100. I do have POE 100 and R-134a in my 1991 Civic with a Sanden TRS070 compressor, but it is definitely recommended to use PAG 46 with factory 134a systems.
Putting UV dye in your system from the outset is also a good practice, it will make it easier to find any leaks in the future.
I think you can still get Sanden SP10 straight from any Honda dealer.... 38897-P13-A01AH (same bottle, different label). Still expensive at $26+
POE is the typical "aftermarket retrofit recommendation" oil because it's compatible with R12's Mineral oil (and most people don't flush their systems). Don't use it in a Sanden R134a compressor (like the TRS090). SP10 or DEC-PAG46 would be best.
BTW: Sanden's own website recommends using SP10 for a R134a retrofit in an R12 compressor (like the 88-91 TR70 or 92-93 TRF090), not POE.
I think you can still get Sanden SP10 straight from any Honda dealer.... 38897-P13-A01AH (same bottle, different label). Still expensive at $26+
POE is the typical "aftermarket retrofit recommendation" oil because it's compatible with R12's Mineral oil (and most people don't flush their systems). Don't use it in a Sanden R134a compressor (like the TRS090). SP10 or DEC-PAG46 would be best.
BTW: Sanden's own website recommends using SP10 for a R134a retrofit in an R12 compressor (like the 88-91 TR70 or 92-93 TRF090), not POE.
Yes I will use the SP10 (albeit it is not the regular PAG 46 but the daphne hermetic oil ps) and not the POE.
On a side note just look at the label on this honda specific oil, it says 4 fl oz this just comfirms that the system needs 4fl oz and not 5. While all the generic oil comes in 250 ml packaging (~ 8 fl oz).
Now just waiting for the weekend to start working on my car ac, but the oil distribution among all the system components is still a mystery some says to distribute the oil in all system components while still many says just add all oil to the compressor.
The oil gets mixed and carried by the refrigerant as soon as the system is fired up and distributed throughout (preventing corrosion and lubricating seals/o-rings). From that point on, when the system is off, the oil settles in various locations in the amount shown in a previous post. No worries about getting the distribution right for the initial startup. Probably better to have all the oil in the compressor anyways at startup.
Yes the system takes 4oz (120cc) of oil total. If you read the instructions in the factory service manual for replacing a compressor, the oil-draining procedure of the new compressor is based on a 4 fl oz system total. Also I believe it's stated on the silver AC-system label under the hood (which you probably won't have). If you want one from the 94-95 Civic, the part# is 80050-SR3-H00 and cost about $2 at the dealer
The oil gets mixed and carried by the refrigerant as soon as the system is fired up and distributed throughout (preventing corrosion and lubricating seals/o-rings). From that point on, when the system is off, the oil settles in various locations in the amount shown in a previous post. No worries about getting the distribution right for the initial startup. Probably better to have all the oil in the compressor anyways at startup.
Yes the system takes 4oz (120cc) of oil total. If you read the instructions in the factory service manual for replacing a compressor, the oil-draining procedure of the new compressor is based on a 4 fl oz system total. Also I believe it's stated on the silver AC-system label under the hood (which you probably won't have). If you want one from the 94-95 Civic, the part# is 80050-SR3-H00 and cost about $2 at the dealer
Bravo Mr. @94eg!
This is the most concise and satisfying answer to this problem so far i have seen searching here and there for a whole month, whole internet must appreciate it.
Glad this helps. I'm like you in that I want to know everything about this stuff before actually attempting it. When I rebuilt my 2 AC systems, I did tons of extended research, comparing all the different year service manuals. That 4oz/5oz oil debacle stumped me as well.
The really fun part I had was determining the exact amount of R134a for my 1989 R12 system retrofit . I even managed to find a matching AC-system label (from an NSX) that showed the exact amounts of R134a and SP10 for my modified system. lol Fun project and well worth all the effort!
BTW: Don't be too disappointed if your EG's AC system is not that great. They blow clod, but tend to max out pretty easily. The problem with the EG system is that the condenser is too small. My CRX's R134a-retrofit AC system blows my EG's AC system away (haha joke). Both systems tested in peak condition after their rebuilds. The problem is that the EG's system just doesn't have the capacity to move that much heat. Could also be I have stainless headers, and Las Vegas ambient temps reach 115*f (plus no tint in the EG).
Also....Here is my digital version of the 94-95 R134a Civic AC Performance Test. Much easier and accurate to fill out on a computer than with a pencil in the book. Also I added a bunch of extra reference lines for greater accuracy. Let me know if the photo doesn't work. I can't view images at work.
Glad this helps. I'm like you in that I want to know everything about this stuff before actually attempting it. When I rebuilt my 2 AC systems, I did tons of extended research, comparing all the different year service manuals. That 4oz/5oz oil debacle stumped me as well.
The really fun part I had was determining the exact amount of R134a for my 1989 R12 system retrofit . I even managed to find a matching AC-system label (from an NSX) that showed the exact amounts of R134a and SP10 for my modified system. lol Fun project and well worth all the effort!
BTW: Don't be too disappointed if your EG's AC system is not that great. They blow clod, but tend to max out pretty easily. The problem with the EG system is that the condenser is too small. My CRX's R134a-retrofit AC system blows my EG's AC system away (haha joke). Both systems tested in peak condition after their rebuilds. The problem is that the EG's system just doesn't have the capacity to move that much heat. Could also be I have stainless headers, and Las Vegas ambient temps reach 115*f (plus no tint in the EG).
Here the situation is same temperature can sore up above 110°F. I am aware of the small size of condensor unit of the EG civic. I have got a spare fan for the condensor, tested both the attached fan and this spare one so as to install the one woth greater speed. In my case i have also installed after market exhaust manifold for that i will try to get back the original one along with its cover.
Also....Here is my digital version of the 94-95 R134a Civic AC Performance Test. Much easier and accurate to fill out on a computer than with a pencil in the book. Also I added a bunch of extra reference lines for greater accuracy. Let me know if the photo doesn't work. I can't view images at work.
Yes it is visible and I appreciate your hard work behind it. I will request you to please put this graphical data in tabular form and share it here, most of the users like me will benefit from it.
So far I have found the following two tables relating the ambient temperature, humidity and system's low and high pressures but I am not sure whether it is also true for EG civic or not.
Here they are...
After I reviewed a bunch of Honda manuals, I concluded every AC system is different (cause each chart had different values). This is the specific reason why I scanned and traced the one out of my 94 Honda Civic shop manual. The jpeg I posted is supposed to be filled out in MS-Paint. Simply open the jpeg and use the line tool to draw right on top of it. The only other version of the file I have is an Autocad dwg, but nobody will be able to use that. Sorry.
After I reviewed a bunch of Honda manuals, I concluded every AC system is different (cause each chart had different values). This is the specific reason why I scanned and traced the one out of my 94 Honda Civic shop manual. The jpeg I posted is supposed to be filled out in MS-Paint. Simply open the jpeg and use the line tool to draw right on top of it. The only other version of the file I have is an Autocad dwg, but nobody will be able to use that. Sorry.
I have 1993 model Right Hand Drive 4 door civic. The AC system is little different than the LHD civic in terms of the AC lines. The AC lines (a. between drier and evaporator b. between evaporator and compressor) civic are shorter in length as compared to LHD civic. The car actually came with R12 AC system.
I want to convert the AC system to R134a, for this purpose I have purchased complete parts but most of them are used. These parts were removed from a donor car (≥94 civic). Except the compressor which I removed from a 2000 (EK) civic. The compressor model is Keihin 090L (equivalent to Sanden TRS090 part no. 4993).
As per the documents available (mostly USDM for LHD civic), following are the recommended values refrigerant weight and AC compressor oil.
1. Refrigerant = 19 ounces
2. AC compressor oil = 5 fl oz
Are these values also applicable to RHD civic or not, please comment.
As the parts are used, they were filled with old oil, which needs to be flushed.
Following are the parts, which I have purchased for putting this system together.
1. O-rings
I was not able to find the required HNBR green color O-rings, so I purchased regular NBR O-rings. Other type available was VITON but they were way expensive)
2. AC compressor oil
I searched a lot for the oil here, but most of shops were having POE oil, the famous brands available were suniso (SL100) by Sunoco Belgium and Emkarate (RL68H) by ICI. At last got hold of the recommended oil for this compressor as written on the label i.e., SP10, but this is not the regular PAG46 it is in fact Daphne Hermitic oil PS (this is enhanced PAG oil i.e., double end capped).
3. Refrigerant
Honeywell Genetron R134a 30lb cylinder
4. Vacuum pump
2 stage 8 CFM
5. Flushing liquid/solvent
Acetone
6. Weighing scale
7. Portable compressor/Tires inflator unit
8. Expansion valve (new)
9. Drier/Receiver (new )
10. Tensioner pulley bearing
NTN 6203 LU
11. Manifold gauge set with hoses
12. Thermometer etc.
Following is the “to do” list as per my understanding which I have learned after studying various material over the internet. I need your guidance in this regard.
1. Flush all the components so that all the old oil is completely removed along with any debris/foreign particles. Remove all O-rings during this process.
2. To flush the evaporator unit, remove the expansion valve and put some solvent in it, keep both ends closed and shake the unit so that the oil inside can properly mix with the solvent. Drain the solvent and using compressed air push all the residues out forcefully. Repeat this step until clear solvent is returned at the other end. While pushing air through the evaporator unit keep the other closed to build pressure inside and then suddenly release this pressure to produce a hammering effect, this will help in dislodging the debris.
3. A similar procedure needs to be done for condenser unit and metallic AC pipe i.e., high pressure line between drier and evaporator but remove the Schrader valve and clean it separately.
4. The rubber pipes like the pipe between condenser and compressor needs to washed with soapy water and then with plain water.
5. The compressor should never be flushed with solvent, instead use the new oil to flush it. The procedure is to first remove all the old oil by keeping the ports in downward position and then then rotating the shaft with hands. Afterwards, put the new oil in the compressor and keep it rotating so that new oil can reach every corner of the compressor and can replace the old oil then drain this oil. Repeat this step until all the internals look clean.
6. Checking the expansion valve, please comment here.
7. Before assembling, keep all the parts in direct sunlight to let them dry. Now lubricate all the O-rings (new ones) and start assembling the system. Remember that the system has no oil at all at this point.
8. Install the drier unit at last.
9. Pull vacuum out of the system so that the no traces of solvent or moisture are left inside, also verify the air leakage in to the system. This will ensure that the new oil do not get a chance to contaminate.
10. Now remove the compressor pipes (only) and put the recommended quantity of oil in the compressor dividing it equally in suction and discharge ports.
11. Close the system and vacuum the system again for 30 minutes at least and leave it for an hour to confirm the system is airtight.
12. Now rotate the shaft (counterclockwise) at least 10 times so that oil can circulate inside the system so that there are no chances of compressor choking when the system is run for the first time.
13. Put the belt on and apply the recommended value of tension using the tensioner pulley bolt.
14. Start filling the system with refrigerant on the low side until refrigerant flow is stopped. Now start the engine and let the refrigerant fill inside the system until recommended weight is achieved.
15. Note ambient condition i.e., temperature and humidity, center vent temperature and low and high side pressure. Using the Ambient conditions and Low/high side pressure relating chart or graph compare your system if the required performance is achieved or not. The graph is shown in post number 35, above by 94eg!
You must use o-rings that are suitable for R-134a.
Be careful with flushing. Realize that untreated air from an air compressor can be very wet, often has droplets of water in it. That is seriously not good.
Any doubt about the TXV, replace it. It's a $15.00 part and they do wear out.
Maybe a tiny bit less refrigerant because of the shorter lines in RHD car.
Dump liquid into the high side (or even both sides) with the engine OFF as the initial charge. Get as close to full charge as you can before starting compressor the first time.
Perhaps you can order HNBR o-ring kit from the USA. They are only ~$15us. Part# is MT2560. The kit is universal for Honda and contains a bunch of the correct size o-rings (except the tiny one for the expansion valve....which comes with a new expansion valve). You will have many left over.
Definitely replace the expansion valve. It's cheap and it's a prime source of AC related issues.
Personally I just follow the OEM shop-manual and add the oil to the compressor on the bench before install. I also skip the priming part (spinning the compressor clutch). There is no way any shop, dealership or even the manufacturer does this. They just bolt the compressor on, fill the system, start it up, and finish the charge. You're not going to choke the compressor.
Also I think you mean 19 ounces.....not 19 pounds of refrigerant.
Thanks for the correction, yes it is 19 ounces (around 560 g).
Regarding the expansion valve, The only one which I was able to find compatible to this model of civic is "E15K4QEX" but it looks a little inferior in quality to me as compared to the original one. The original one bears the part no. "ST7-AO10". R134a civic 94~95 TxV
Therefore I am a little reluctant to replace the valve, sourcing parts from ebay/amazon or any other renowned online store is always problematic in this part of the world. I have passed air through my old expansion valve and it don't look blocked to me, I don't know how to further investigate it.
Moreover, the new drier/receiver unit I have purchased is actually for corolla 95 (AE100), this is the closest in resemblance/fitting with the original. Please remember that the civic available here slightly differs from the Japanese domestic model cars and also the US cars, while the AC lines I parted from the donor car came from japan as a scrap. Therefore the regular drier/receiver unit commonly available here as a new part won't fit unless I bend the flange fittings (pipe ends) so that the holes for the bolts align with those on the drier/receiver unit, I hope I was able to make this point clear. EG civic R134a Drier/Receiver
Therefore I had have to purchase this off model drier/receiver. This new drier/receiver unit slightly shorter in length and also the threaded hole for the outgoing liquid line is little off center, so I have to make the bolt hole inside the pipe a little wider so that the bolt can easily pass on.
Now in this scenario what do you people suggest about the A/C compressor oil should I still need to fill 5 fl-oz (150 ml) or a little less like the refrigerant ( as earlier discussed I have add a little bit less than 560 g). Honda service manual suggests to add 4 fl-oz oil (120 ml). Please also give me a final verdict about the expansion valve. I start working on the project on this coming Saturday.
Thanks
System oil volume is 4oz. This is what comes inside the compressor from the factory. Stick with that number
System refrigerant charge weight (US) is 550g. Change the volume based on your receiver driver being a different size than standard US-spec. This is where excess liquid refrigerant is stored when the system is operating.
Whatever you do with a substitute drier -- it must be properly plumbed, with "IN" coming from the condenser and the out port going to the TXV. Also they have to be mounted vertically. It depends on gravity for its operation of separating the liquid from gas.
Whatever you do with a substitute drier -- it must be properly plumbed, with "IN" coming from the condenser and the out port going to the TXV. Also they have to be mounted vertically. It depends on gravity for its operation of separating the liquid from gas.
Isn't it the separation of debris and moisture from liquid refrigerant as all the refrigerant has already change its state to liquid from gaseous state. The vaporized refrigerant boils down to change its state, the process start at the entrance of condensor and completes at its exist. Please correct me if I am wrong.
On the side note, for the correct weight/volume of refrigerant inside the system there should be no bubles visible in the sight glass of Drier/Receiver unit which simply implies that there no gaseous refrigerant at this point.
Here is the new expansion valve which just recently purchased
Please suggest should I go with this new valve or keep the old (original) one.
The old valve has been left open as I was cleaning the evaporator unit, is there any deterioration effect on this valve when left exposed to the atmosphere.
During operation, the receiver drier is about half-full of liquid. The outlet has a dip tube to the bottom so that a steady flow of liquid goes to the TXV. The sight glass is on the outlet pipe. Sight glasses are of limited use in R-134a systems because PAG oil tends to be cloudy / foamy even in liquid lines.
If liquid were backing up into the condenser, condenser performance would be reduced. No condensation can take place in sections that are flooded. That would be an overcharged system. The buffer space in the receiver also allows a couple of oz of refrigerant to leak out before cooling performance is affected.
During operation, the receiver drier is about half-full of liquid. The outlet has a dip tube to the bottom so that a steady flow of liquid goes to the TXV. The sight glass is on the outlet pipe. Sight glasses are of limited use in R-134a systems because PAG oil tends to be cloudy / foamy even in liquid lines.
If liquid were backing up into the condenser, condenser performance would be reduced. No condensation can take place in sections that are flooded. That would be an overcharged system. The buffer space in the receiver also allows a couple of oz of refrigerant to leak out before cooling performance is affected.
Thanks @mk378 for the reply, though It was way too much info for me to understand.
Do someone have any idea where to exactly place the evaporator electric therrmo switch?
I just found the following picture for 99 00 EK civic, here it is
According to this reference picture the thermo switch must be placed on or afterwards the 6th number fin (counting from the output side or 60cm away from output side and below the center line).
Are these values also applicable to EG civic?
and what does the output side refer to?
I have placed mine in the following manner....
Does it look correct to you?
03-27-2017, 05:24 PM
Re: A/C Compressor Oil.
