Arandomuser

Hey Guys,

I tried searching the forum with no results, it may be my lack of search skills IDK. but I have an issue.

Just purchased a 98' Acura EL, it is a 4 door civic with nice options.

my problem is it died on my daughter yesterday on the highway. she had filled the tank not long before the breakdown.

it would start right after with some trying, but now that i had it towed home it will no longer start.

I have done the following;
1)checked fuel supply, pump works, filter removed cleared, fuel is supplied through filter so, we have fuel.

2) pulled spark plug, inserted metal conductor in plug, checked spark by cranking and holding near metal, spark is there, so, we have spark too

3)pulled and checked EVERY fuse in the main box (inside drivers knee bolster) under hood boxes (both) only the AC condenser 20amp was burned.

4)checked main battery ground, and block ground, filed to bare metal, re-installed.

5) attempted to start with Starting fluid. cranks like a maniac...no go.

Can anyone point me in the right direction here, I need this back on the road.

the car has a 1.6l Vetec motor, and Auto trans.

I am thinking possible failure of a)neutral safety switch, b)possible failure of ICM or c) possible slippage of the T-belt enough to knock the timing out to where it won't start...

Tl;DR, Car has spark, fuel, cranks but wont go after dying randomly in traffic

Admin, if this is in wrong section, pls move.

thanks guys any help will be appreciated...

TomCat39

I'm not an admin but I can say this is definitely in the wrong forum of the board.

That being said, there is a couple of possibilities.... Firs tthing that comes to mind... You said your daughter jsut filled up, did she accidently fill up with Diesel instead of regular? That would not run in your car.

Another thought is just because you have fuel past the fuel filter doesn't mean you have fuel going into the intake. Now the injectors wouldn't all fail at the same time so it sounds more like an ECU problem or even the fuel regulator on the fuel rail maybe, something that would impact all four injectors at the same time.

At first I thought, have you checked compression, if all four are too low it won't start or run but you did say it was running before and I doubt you'd break all four rings simultaneously.

From your description I'd lean towards, diesel in the gas, or the Engine Control Unit died.

Good luck.

94EG8

Moved to the '92 - '00 Civic section.

I can tell you it's not a neutral safety switch, if it's cranking then that's fine, all it does is interrupt power to the starter itself.

If you have fuel and fire then start looking at timing and like some else mentioned if it was just filled with gas before this happened check and see if someone didn't put diesel in it (I've seen this happen way more than anyone would think possible)

Former User

What color is spark? it should be bright white.

Arandomuser

Guys,
thanks for the replies,

Tomcat, no diesel, it is gas for sure, although I originally thought maybe she kicked up some turbidity in the tank, car was just bought and had been sitting for awhile.

94EG8, thanks for the tip on the NSS, I am happy to rule that out, I had no idea what the NSS failing would "look like" as far as symptoms. It is cranking, I am taking the T-cover off to asses, I think it may be timing related as well, and have picked up a T-belt for it at any rate.

RonJ, it looked to be a good blueish spark, I just arced to the Valve cover with a metal "electrode" spark Seemed ok, I will verify when I get a chance.

Apparently she was "accelerating smoothly" after just getting on to the Highway, I think possibly the higher rpm may have skipped the belt a couple of teeth...does that seem possible to you guys?

thanks again for the help!

Patrick

ps, 94EG8, I am a couple hours south of you just outside of Moncton, small world lol.

Former User

Spark should be bright white with only a tinge of blue.

94EG8

It's possible. Timing belts don't tend skip teeth or break at high RPM nearly as much as people think they do though. I've seen it happen way more often at idle, and for whatever reason they seem to bend valves more often at idle than high RPM. I broke a timing belt once, it worked great until it quit, no funny noises when it quit either, tried to restart, didn't bend valves. Replaced the timing belt on the side of the 126

The quickest way to do this is pull the valve cover, pull the upper timing cover and turn the crank to TDC. If the marks on the cam pulley aren't lined up then you know you have a timing problem.

Small world indeed, I used to spend a lot of time in Moncton, other than flying from Toronto a week ago I haven't been to Moncton for over a year I think

Arandomuser

94EG8, thanks, I am having issues trying to figure out the crank timing marks, I was going to pull the crank pulley to have a look behind at the sprocket, but it seems I may have the dreaded "Honda omyfrickiggodthecrankpullyistight " problem, I have been hitting it with WD40 for 2 days, and an impact is doing nothing....

I guess a wire in the spark plug hole will do it though... I hate timing motors, gahh.

94EG8

You need a really good impact to get the bolt out. You also need to run your compressor at at least 120psi.

You don't need to take the crank pulley and lower timing cover off if you just want to check the timing. The white mark on the crank pulley (the one off by itself) is the TDC mark, line it up with the sight on the plastic lower cover.

SoyaBean

There's a bulletin on the electrical portion of the ignition switch, that should be causng your problem. Take it back to an Acura dealer.

mreddy

are u checked distributor?

Arandomuser

Thanks for the great tips, illustrations, lol(I am grateful) and suggestions, I should have a chance to check into it a bit more after Dinner.
Will check back.

SoyaBean, is there a code that would be thrown with the switch failure? I have no CEL going on.

cheers guys,

Patrick

94EG8

No, and normally it will be an intermittent failure. It'll shut off, but usually it will start again, immediately or soon after.

Arandomuser

ok, so I checked the timing mark through the sight, I have no painted mark, however I have 3 groves close together with a 4th grove set further away, I think that must be it, also on the cam pulley, I see the "tdc" marks, and the"up" spoke of the pulley, but I see no mark on the Actual pulley that I figure ought to be down by the pointer on the t-belt cover...

also as a note, I can get the car to start if I "floor it", but it runs rough as hell like it is on 2 cylinders or something.

I am on my way out to look harder thanks again for the help.

94EG8

Yeah that 4th one off by itself is the one. It was painted at one time but probably became rusted enough that it couldn't be seen sometime around '99 or so.

I ran out and took a couple of pics for you since I just happened to have a cam pulley for a Y7/Y8 laying on the workbench. There will be two timing marks 180° apart on the pulley. You can see one in the picture as indicated by the arrow:



I didn't have a Y8 here, but I did have a D16Z6 laying on the floor, it's got the same inner upper timing cover but uses a different pulley and timing marks. The two triangles (again only one is pictured) above the P08 are used for the D16Y7/D16Y8:




That really sounds like a timing issue then, with some possible bent valves as well.

Arandomuser

Thanks so much for the pic's.

I took a couple of my own, I don't think they are as clear as yours, but take a look and tell me what you think...I think the Timing belt is ever so slightly off.

the mark looks like it lines up with the left post of the "V" sight, and not directly down the middle.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

what say you?

94EG8

You want to line up the crank pulley, set it to TDC and then see if the cam pulley timing marks line up, not the other way around.

It looks lined up in your pics, but you have to look directly through the sight, otherwise it's skews your perspective too much.

If you're trying to take good closeup pics use the macro setting (the flower) on your camera.

Arandomuser

Ok, so, I lined the crank pulley up at TDC (the 4th line, off by itself) and then examined the cam pulley...

it isn't timing belt related is it?

pic's;

[/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

94EG8

It's been a while since I did one of these, but actually disregard what I said about the timing marks on the inner plastic cover. see if the marks on the pulley line up with the surface of the head. If yes you've got another problem (possible burnt valve) if no then it's a timing problem.

Btw, whoever had this before wasn't big on oil changes.

Arandomuser

Thanks a bunch for the help with this EG8,

I put a straight edge on the deck of the head it lined up with T-marks perfectly, on both sides.
the Crank pulley is lined up perfectly down the sights with the 4th mark (the one on it's own)

it seems I have a different issue?

how to troubleshoot a burnt valve? I noticed the build up as well, if I get this fixed (when) I am going to flush it and do oil change immediately...again...

could this be the starter switch issue? I saw that researching online, but have no idea how to tell. also, I am 70km from a Honda dealer for sure. I may have to just buy the part and switch it here. this is project low-buck.

94EG8

It would seem that way.

Compression test to figure out which cylinder(s) are the problem. Then a leak down test to figure out where the leakage is.

I'd say it's unlikely the starter switch is your problem. Especially if you have fuel and fire.

Btw, where exactly are you?

Arandomuser

I am in Murray Corner, Hyw 955. about 12 minutes before the bridge to P.E.I.

Beautiful spot, my Wife an I just bought a little farm out here. we love it, but the commute is a bit hard when your car dies lol...

I am now back to square one it seems, and am pretty bummed. I really wish I knew which way to go with this...

how common is a burnt valve? she said the temp gauge came up some too, but there is no evidence of HG failure that I see.

I am stumped. if it isn't timing, and I crank and have spark and fuel, (and saying it isn't a burnt valve) what the heck is left. DME? if it was the computer wouldn't it just be dead? it isn't an ICM as I have spark (I assume there wouldn't be any if it were the case)

gah...bed time for today.

94EG8

Ahh, I wondered how you were just past Moncton and still 70km from a Honda dealer.

Not very common, but it does happen occasionally.

You wont normally see a milkshake with a Honda if that's what you're looking for. Typically what you'll see is coolant being forced out of the overflow. If it's bad enough and remove the rad cap and crank the engine over it will shoot coolant out the top of the rad pretty violently. Have you pulled the plugs to check and see if it was burning coolant?

Usually if it's an ECU problem it just plain wont start. Sometimes a coil or ICM will act flakey, especially when hot. If you're looking for used '92 - '00 Civic, '97 - '01 CR-V, '92 - '01 Integra and I think '90 - '93 Integra all use interchangeable ICMs and all have identical coils. If replacing an OKI/NEC ICM with a Hitachi you'll need to grind or file off two little bumps on the ICM bracket. If you want to try a whole other distributor on it '96 - '00 Civic except '99 - '00 SiR are identical. as is '97 - '00 Acura EL.

Arandomuser

I buttoned this all up again, and re-started the process.

I discovered that I think that the spark may be yellow, I can't tell entirely but that's what I think.

as another detail, after sitting awhile, it sounds like it "Almost" fires at first when I crank it, followed by cranking with no catch.

perhaps coil or module? thanks all.

94EG8

I'd try to find out for sure before I spent much on parts. The coil tends to either work or not work. I haven't had too many igniters go bad but I can't say I ever had one act like that either. You should be able to find both cheap enough used where you are though. (expect to pay around $40 for a complete used distributor in the Moncton area)

Btw, scribe a mark across the top mounting ear of the distributor and the head before removing the distributor so you can get it back in the same place when reinstalling it.