frank206

Hi,
New here, I hope someone can help. I have a 2003 Honda Civic HX with a 1.7 v-tech. It started with the car not starting at operating temperature unless you gave it a shot of starting fluid or let it cool for about an hour. Now it won't start about 95% of the time hot or cold with out starting fluid. Once started it runs like a champ, plenty of power, no misses or hesitations, and the mpg's are right where they've always been. When you turn the key to on you can hear the relay click and the fuel pump run. I tested both relays and they seem working right. I just checked the fuel pump pressure when key on it's 40psi and running 44psi. I checked the injector for continuity and they were all the same. I checked the IAC valve and when unplugged the idle shot up from about 750 rpm's.
Any help would be appreciated.

prodjay10

I had a similar problem. When it was on E, I poured a whole bottle of b-12 injector cleaner ($3 at Walmart) in the tank and ran it until I needed gas. It's been working without starter fluid since.

frank206

My tanks full. I did pour a bottle of injector cleaner in the tank. I actually removed the fuel rail and injectors, I pressurized the fuel rail to 40 psi and energized each injector, I got a nice even spray of fuel from each. At this point I'm out of things to look for.

frank206

This mourning I went out and tried to start it again. I noticed something that with no accelerator I would here a click from the relays behind the glove boxes and the motor would fire but not start, I kept cranking and on the third or fourth click it would start. Is that normal while cranking the motor over?

hondatech8798

iTrader: (2)

Might sound weird but I've seen lots of failed coolant temp sensors on these vehicles, they would read cold while the engine was hot and hot while the engine was cold typically causing long cranking on both hot and cold start ups....
Try unplugging the temp sensor and seeing how it starts, it's on the pass side close too the ft of the valve cover and the plug is vertical
When the engine is cold it likes more fuel on start ups for quicker starts but if the temp sensor is reading hot (falsely) it will cause a lean condition causing longer cranking and explain the need for starter fluid assist

frank206

I tried it. It made no difference. This car is driving me insane.

hondatech8798

iTrader: (2)

Engine light on?
Be nice if u can hook it to a scan tool and look at the data list...

frank206

It never thru a code until yesterday, now every time I get it started it gives code p1166. I don't think this has anything to do with the no start, It's more than likely something I did. As for a scanner I'm looking into one of the Bluetooth modules the works with a tablet.
I have question while the car is running, if you unplug the egr valve on the side of the throttle body should the idle change, mine doesn't.

NDNV

A bad main fuel relay can give symptoms like yours. Some replace the relay while others have re-soldered them to fix them.

frank206

That was one of the first things I looked for, but my car doesn't have a main relay, it has two small relays behind the glove box in front of the computer. Which I'm replacing because I broke one taking it out. I'm still curious about the egr valve if the idle should change when I unplug it.
Thanks for any help or suggestions you guys can come up with.

bbarbulo

no, the EGR is inactive at idle, so unplugging it does nothing. EGR opening at idle would stall the car.

your car doesn't have a main relay? how does the fuel pump run then? in conclusion... you have a main relay.

p1166 is a fault with the O2 heater circuit, not related to the starting issue

it sounds like of the 3 elements (fuel, air, spark) you don't get the fuel at starting. Use noid lights in the fuel injector plugs and have someone crank the car. I suspect the fuel injectors work, but the ECU is refusing the fire the injectors at cranking speed. If the noid lights don't light upon cranking, then your crank position sensor is dirty or failing.

frank206

From what I've found both on the internet and in the car I don't have one main relay I've got 2 small relays behind the glove box, a blue one for the fuel pump and a brown one I believe for the fuel injectors. As for the crank sensor, how would I go about testing it, because I replaced about a year ago and it is a lot of work to replace.

bbarbulo

oh the car is an HX and a 2003... k then i don't know maybe, too lazy to dig up the wiring diagram for your car, so I'll take your word for the relay situation. it's kinda irrelevant since the car runs once you blast some starting fluid in there, so those relays must have closed for the car to run.

easiest thing to do for the CPS is to have the scanner hooked up to live data and watch the RPM reading while cranking; or more definitive would be to use noid lights like I said in my last post. plug in the noid light in the fuel injector plugs and verify whether or not they are being told to open.


Actually the correct term is CKP, the trouble codes are P0335 or P0336. Do you get any of those? Why did you have to replace the CKP previously? Testing is easy and mostly done from the plug side of the CKP (unplugged). Check pin 3 to ground, should have 12V. Check pin 1 to ground, should have 5V. Check pin 2 to 3, should have 12V. If those all check out, then replace CKP basically... but this is assuming you have a code set for the CKP. What I am thinking is 1. the sensor is contaminated and doesn't get a very good reading when the crank speed is low. I've seen this on ABS sensors before which work the same way. or 2. you didn't replace it with an OEM sensor and it just isn't up to the job; the ECU doesn't like what it sees. This would be an issue that wouldn't set a code - the ECU gets the signal from the CKP, but the signal is incorrect. So at low crank speeds, it just doesn't read.

frank206

Sorry so long replying I had a tree come down and take out both my power and cable. I replaced CKP because the motor was cutting out and it was hard to start. It thru a code for the CKP. I replaced it with one from Orielly's it's not O.E. It fixed the problem and has been working great for the last 9 months or so. This time it hasn't thrown any codes. I'll try testing the CKP the way you said.

frank206

I believe you nailed it on the head. I went out to see if i could start it, so I took the top off the air cleaner to use starting fluid and while I was there I would see how hard it would be to get the plug off the CKP , so I jiggeled the plug and decided to try to start it with out the starting fluid, it started instantly and through the code p0335, I let it run for 30 minutes. Than I cleared the code and tried to start it again, it started instantly and through the same code. So I'm ordering a Denso O.E. CKP sensor today.
Thank you, I would have never figured that was the problem.

bbarbulo

No problem, we're on these forums to offer and to get help

I do wish you'd do a little more verification as opposed to just throwing money at it. I guess it isn't a huge expense, so that's alright. But I worry that you'll replace the sensor, and then either the problem will come right back or it'll come back a couple of months later, only to lead you to a loose wire or broken wire or something along those lines. I had the transmission out on my odyssey to rebuild it, put it back in and got an O2 heater fault. Most people would go and get a new O2 and call it a day. I dug around and found a wire had backed itself out of the connector housing.

Anyways, just so you're aware that the wiring and the connectors are important pieces of the puzzle and are not to be overlooked once you've identified the troublesome area (in your case the CKP circuit). That's all the check engine codes do, point you to an area that is troublesome - the rest is up to you to diagnose properly.

Hope your problem is resolved

frank206

I'll check the connection tomorrow, clean it and see if it still throws a code, if it doesn't I can cancel the order. I've tried starting it about 8 times now both hot and cold and every time started normally. At this point if it costs $65 for a part and it works I'm a happy camper, because it costs me twice that much every month to drive my truck to work.