Recent EM2 problems, confirmation on my thoughts?
10-04-2007, 04:55 AM
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Recent EM2 problems, confirmation on my thoughts?
*This is a long read, but there is an abundance of information.*
I'm having a couple problems with my EM2 D17A2 everything is stock as far as the engine is concerned, I have a good idea of what's going on. Well thought suggestions, ideas, thoughts and/or confirmation is appreciated (please do not respond with "Head-gasket trust me").
I'll start from the beginning, the second day I had my EX I hit a ground hog, in-turn he bent my A/C condenser, along with the holding bracket, which pushed into my radiator (this was over a year ago). I never had any problems with either part so I left them alone.
About a two months ago I was doing some work to the car and decided "I wonder if I can bend that bracket back?". As I bent the bracket back down and pulled the A/C condenser away from the radiator, the radiator stared to leak (obviously damaged due to the impact with the ground hog). It was a small leak and I didn't have an abundance of money at the time (due to just replacing an alternator), so I put stop leak in it (I know the stuff is horrible for the system), desperate times call for desperate measures. Planning on buying a new radiator very very soon (as soon as I get the money).
The coolant system held fine, no problems with the car, until now. About a week ago the car started to over-heat. I get out of the car and check the coolant inlet hose (to the engine) and it is pretty cool. So I figure thermostat, before I put a new one in I pulled the old one out and "boiled it", it opens (bummer
). Due to the wear that was visible, I replaced it anyways (it's cheap why not).
So I flushed my system, radiator itself is not plugged, my two main hoses seem fine. One thing that I do notice though is that my outlet hose (from engine) is hot and pressurized, my heater core hoses one of them seems to be getting warm (not quite fully throughout the hose though, I'm assuming the top one is the inlet to the heater) and the lower one is not getting warm (which I'm assuming is the outlet from the heater). The tube going from the thermostat housing to the water pump is getting hot. But my lower radiator hose is staying cold and it's not being pressurized.
When I flushed my system I noticed I'm getting allot of air coming out of my engine. It seems I can never properly "burp" my system.
On a few occasions it has built enough pressure to over-come my radiator cap. I know that this indicates a blown head-gasket. I am leaning towards a blown head-gasket due to the over pressurizing and I think the reason it's not doing it more often is the hole in the radiator (it likes to push the fluid out that hole, therefor taking longer to build enough pressure to over come the radiator cap).
I can keep it at a pretty decent temperature if I go very easy on the gas. But the thing that gets me is when I begin to over-heat I can feel the inlet hose and it's still cold (which makes me think I'm not getting proper flow). When I get on the gas it begins to over-heat rapidly, in my thoughts I'm thinking could very possibly be the head-gasket, but at the same time I could see a restricted path a.k.a. poor flow doing the same thing (specially due to the used of "Stop leak", and condition of lower hose). When the car is stationary I cannot get it to over-heat, only while moving.
Also it has developed a distinctive tap (more of a drawn out slapping) recently. My initial thoughts were do to the over-heating it may have messed with my valve adjustment (probably due for an adjustment anyways)
.
The thing that gets me is the lower hose. It's not visibly collapsed but it's not acting as if it should. Will be replacing the hose as soon as I get the chance.
There are so many signs pointing to different things it's hard to get my head straight.
I'm having a couple problems with my EM2 D17A2 everything is stock as far as the engine is concerned, I have a good idea of what's going on. Well thought suggestions, ideas, thoughts and/or confirmation is appreciated (please do not respond with "Head-gasket trust me").
I'll start from the beginning, the second day I had my EX I hit a ground hog, in-turn he bent my A/C condenser, along with the holding bracket, which pushed into my radiator (this was over a year ago). I never had any problems with either part so I left them alone.
About a two months ago I was doing some work to the car and decided "I wonder if I can bend that bracket back?". As I bent the bracket back down and pulled the A/C condenser away from the radiator, the radiator stared to leak (obviously damaged due to the impact with the ground hog). It was a small leak and I didn't have an abundance of money at the time (due to just replacing an alternator), so I put stop leak in it (I know the stuff is horrible for the system), desperate times call for desperate measures. Planning on buying a new radiator very very soon (as soon as I get the money).
The coolant system held fine, no problems with the car, until now. About a week ago the car started to over-heat. I get out of the car and check the coolant inlet hose (to the engine) and it is pretty cool. So I figure thermostat, before I put a new one in I pulled the old one out and "boiled it", it opens (bummer
). Due to the wear that was visible, I replaced it anyways (it's cheap why not). So I flushed my system, radiator itself is not plugged, my two main hoses seem fine. One thing that I do notice though is that my outlet hose (from engine) is hot and pressurized, my heater core hoses one of them seems to be getting warm (not quite fully throughout the hose though, I'm assuming the top one is the inlet to the heater) and the lower one is not getting warm (which I'm assuming is the outlet from the heater). The tube going from the thermostat housing to the water pump is getting hot. But my lower radiator hose is staying cold and it's not being pressurized.
When I flushed my system I noticed I'm getting allot of air coming out of my engine. It seems I can never properly "burp" my system.
On a few occasions it has built enough pressure to over-come my radiator cap. I know that this indicates a blown head-gasket. I am leaning towards a blown head-gasket due to the over pressurizing and I think the reason it's not doing it more often is the hole in the radiator (it likes to push the fluid out that hole, therefor taking longer to build enough pressure to over come the radiator cap).
I can keep it at a pretty decent temperature if I go very easy on the gas. But the thing that gets me is when I begin to over-heat I can feel the inlet hose and it's still cold (which makes me think I'm not getting proper flow). When I get on the gas it begins to over-heat rapidly, in my thoughts I'm thinking could very possibly be the head-gasket, but at the same time I could see a restricted path a.k.a. poor flow doing the same thing (specially due to the used of "Stop leak", and condition of lower hose). When the car is stationary I cannot get it to over-heat, only while moving.
Also it has developed a distinctive tap (more of a drawn out slapping) recently. My initial thoughts were do to the over-heating it may have messed with my valve adjustment (probably due for an adjustment anyways)
.The thing that gets me is the lower hose. It's not visibly collapsed but it's not acting as if it should. Will be replacing the hose as soon as I get the chance.
There are so many signs pointing to different things it's hard to get my head straight.
10-04-2007, 05:31 AM
#2
sounds like you have a few problems man. stop leak is like the number one heater core killer, because it's a smaller core than the radiator and gets plugged up really easy. I doubt it would create enough of a blockage to cause overheating, you just wouldnt have heat, maybe just warm air in the passanger compartment. The rest of the stuff, i know you dont want to hear it, sounds like a blown head gasket. If the coolant is overcoming the radiator cap and going into your overflow bottle, it's because cylinder compression is getting into the cooling system. This would also share the symptom of never being able to fully burp the system. What i dont have an answer for is the collapsed coolant hose, you have to have a really old hose or a wicked vacuum there to be causing that, my guess is the stop leak did more than stop the leak but clogged your radiator a little. which may have caused the overheating in head gasket failure to begin with.
10-04-2007, 05:53 AM
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Re: (skipbarber)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skipbarber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds like you have a few problems man. stop leak is like the number one heater core killer, because it's a smaller core than the radiator and gets plugged up really easy. I doubt it would create enough of a blockage to cause overheating, you just wouldnt have heat, maybe just warm air in the passanger compartment. </TD></TR></TABLE>
This is what I'm afraid of... I forgot to add that I don't believe I have heat (try not to use heater because of the strain on the engine would cause it to ever heat), I think I have this problem though... I'm still kicking myself for pouring that crap in... I knew it wasn't a good idea when I did it...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skipbarber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The rest of the stuff, i know you dont want to hear it, sounds like a blown head gasket. If the coolant is overcoming the radiator cap and going into your overflow bottle, it's because cylinder compression is getting into the cooling system. This would also share the symptom of never being able to fully burp the system.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand this... this is definitely what I'm afraid of.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skipbarber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What i dont have an answer for is the collapsed coolant hose, you have to have a really old hose or a wicked vacuum there to be causing that, my guess is the stop leak did more than stop the leak but clogged your radiator a little. which may have caused the overheating in head gasket failure to begin with. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought about this possibility, I think you may be right... but like you said the hose still gets me.
Is it possible that the water pump could be creating enough pressure??? To collapse the hose and/or create enough pressure to over-come the radiator cap?
This is what I'm afraid of... I forgot to add that I don't believe I have heat (try not to use heater because of the strain on the engine would cause it to ever heat), I think I have this problem though... I'm still kicking myself for pouring that crap in... I knew it wasn't a good idea when I did it...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skipbarber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The rest of the stuff, i know you dont want to hear it, sounds like a blown head gasket. If the coolant is overcoming the radiator cap and going into your overflow bottle, it's because cylinder compression is getting into the cooling system. This would also share the symptom of never being able to fully burp the system.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand this... this is definitely what I'm afraid of.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skipbarber »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What i dont have an answer for is the collapsed coolant hose, you have to have a really old hose or a wicked vacuum there to be causing that, my guess is the stop leak did more than stop the leak but clogged your radiator a little. which may have caused the overheating in head gasket failure to begin with. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I thought about this possibility, I think you may be right... but like you said the hose still gets me.
Is it possible that the water pump could be creating enough pressure??? To collapse the hose and/or create enough pressure to over-come the radiator cap?
10-04-2007, 11:42 AM
#4
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the waterpump is either going to move water, or its not. Its directly driven via the timing belt at engine speed, and the only way they break is major... you'd see water everywhere.
10-04-2007, 11:49 AM
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Re: (Boilermaker1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boilermaker1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the waterpump is either going to move water, or its not. Its directly driven via the timing belt at engine speed, and the only way they break is major... you'd see water everywhere.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I realize that, but what I was asking is it capable of creating enough pressure to either collapse a hose or over power my radiator cap due to something being clogged?
I realize that, but what I was asking is it capable of creating enough pressure to either collapse a hose or over power my radiator cap due to something being clogged?
10-04-2007, 12:24 PM
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Re: (Boilermaker1)
The heater doesn't put a strain on the engine. If anything running the heater would help. It sounds like you have a blown headgasket and water is getting into the oil and has caused one of the rods to start knocking. Drain the oil and see if it looks baby **** brown and come back and tell us.
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10-04-2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: (Boilermaker1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boilermaker1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The pump just moves water. The pressure comes from the temperature of the water. The pump wont really effect that to a large extent.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's kinda what I figured... alright... here's a question.
Hypothetically speaking... If there was to be a blockage somewhere(would explain lower hose), and I wasn't getting coolant circulating, it could warm up enough to create pressure and "boil over" into my reservoir, correct?
That's kinda what I figured... alright... here's a question.
Hypothetically speaking... If there was to be a blockage somewhere(would explain lower hose), and I wasn't getting coolant circulating, it could warm up enough to create pressure and "boil over" into my reservoir, correct?
10-04-2007, 04:24 PM
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Re: (sloem2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sloem2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">only 45,000 miles and the tranny is already taking a **** on me</TD></TR></TABLE>
??? What does this have to do with anything??
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by k24em2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The heater doesn't put a strain on the engine. If anything running the heater would help. It sounds like you have a blown headgasket and water is getting into the oil and has caused one of the rods to start knocking. Drain the oil and see if it looks baby **** brown and come back and tell us.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oil is fine... I may have a heater problem as well, barely any heat and unless my mind is playing tricks on me I detect a faint sweet smell
??? What does this have to do with anything??
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by k24em2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The heater doesn't put a strain on the engine. If anything running the heater would help. It sounds like you have a blown headgasket and water is getting into the oil and has caused one of the rods to start knocking. Drain the oil and see if it looks baby **** brown and come back and tell us.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Oil is fine... I may have a heater problem as well, barely any heat and unless my mind is playing tricks on me I detect a faint sweet smell
10-05-2007, 12:01 AM
#13
coolant doesnt boil over into your reseviour, it's pushed into it by cylinder compression. Leak down testing these cars to try and determine headgasket condition usually yeilds no results. It happened to me and boilermaker. We leak down tested his car, and all cylinders where within 20%, my car was the same deal, we were both pushing coolant. He was building a new motor, and i was dropping in a vtec head, come to find out we both had blown HG's. Simply put, if your reseviour bottle is consistently overflowing, your car is over heating and the only solution you have is continuously add coolant, your head gasket is beyond help. I would replace it before you overheat it to a point of warpage and replace the radiator if you havent already. Hopefully your heater core isn't gone. It seems like when d17's blow the HG, they tend not to overheat under light or no loads, IE, idle or moderate driving. My car would be fine if i kept it out of boost and constantly topped off the coolant. sorry man, but im willing to bet your HG is long gone.
10-05-2007, 04:11 AM
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Re: (skipbarber)
^Thats also what I'm thinking is that it is the head gasket (I want to cancel all other thoughts before I tear apart my head though, I'm sure you can understand), I also know it doesn't "boil-over" it's just a term more easily understood when speaking of the condition. I've only achieved this condition twice throughout the past couple weeks.
Nothing seems to be clogged, I checked everything last night but...
A new development last night... I forgot that earlier on that my fans didn't seem to be acting normal, they would only turn on when I turn the heat/ a/c on. Last night they seemed to be running without the aid of the blower being turned on. Also in addition to this my lower hose seemed to be getting warm and have circulation... but I still don't have heat in the car.
I should be receiving a radiator in the next week or so, then I will be able to cancel out all of my other ideas and truly be able to diagnose the system.
Do you think it would be possible that I'm not getting heat and not getting correct cooling (I can drive the car for a decent amount of time and I don't overheat or push coolant into my resevoir... as long as I take it easy) due to the hole in the radiator? Is it possible due to the lack of possitive compression on the system because of said hole that the system doesn't get the correct flow of coolant?
Also what all does the "Switch/sensor" control that also controls the fans?
Nothing seems to be clogged, I checked everything last night but...
A new development last night... I forgot that earlier on that my fans didn't seem to be acting normal, they would only turn on when I turn the heat/ a/c on. Last night they seemed to be running without the aid of the blower being turned on. Also in addition to this my lower hose seemed to be getting warm and have circulation... but I still don't have heat in the car.
I should be receiving a radiator in the next week or so, then I will be able to cancel out all of my other ideas and truly be able to diagnose the system.
Do you think it would be possible that I'm not getting heat and not getting correct cooling (I can drive the car for a decent amount of time and I don't overheat or push coolant into my resevoir... as long as I take it easy) due to the hole in the radiator? Is it possible due to the lack of possitive compression on the system because of said hole that the system doesn't get the correct flow of coolant?
Also what all does the "Switch/sensor" control that also controls the fans?
10-05-2007, 06:09 AM
#16
same deal with my car. my fans would work normally, so long as the car didnt over heat. Once the coolant temp got unstable, the fans didnt know wtf to do. the temperature switch for the fans does nothing else but control the fans, it's in the thermostat housing, but the computer wont force the fans on even if the temp needle rises to the top.
So what you end up with is a scenario where the HG slowly beings to leak cylinder compression into the cooling system, pushing coolant past the cap. At this point it begins to get progressively worse and as more coolant leaves the radiator, there isn't enough coolant in the system to open the thermostat let alone trip the fan switch. And for good reason, If the coolant level drops beyond a certain point, the fans aint gonna do ****. Simply put, if you have little to no coolant, the water to air heat exchanger becomes an air to air heat exchanger which doesnt cool nearly as effeciently as coolant (duh.)
However, a hole is a hole and if you still leak coolant out of your radiator i guess it's possible that that is your problem. It would explain the loss of coolant and overheat condition, but wont explain the coolant pushing past the radiator cap. It doesnt take much pressure to overcome the cap to begin with, what is our cap rating? like .4 bar? thats like 5 or 6 psi, so even the smallest HG leak could cause the coolant push.
So what you end up with is a scenario where the HG slowly beings to leak cylinder compression into the cooling system, pushing coolant past the cap. At this point it begins to get progressively worse and as more coolant leaves the radiator, there isn't enough coolant in the system to open the thermostat let alone trip the fan switch. And for good reason, If the coolant level drops beyond a certain point, the fans aint gonna do ****. Simply put, if you have little to no coolant, the water to air heat exchanger becomes an air to air heat exchanger which doesnt cool nearly as effeciently as coolant (duh.)
However, a hole is a hole and if you still leak coolant out of your radiator i guess it's possible that that is your problem. It would explain the loss of coolant and overheat condition, but wont explain the coolant pushing past the radiator cap. It doesnt take much pressure to overcome the cap to begin with, what is our cap rating? like .4 bar? thats like 5 or 6 psi, so even the smallest HG leak could cause the coolant push.
10-05-2007, 09:32 AM
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Re: (skipbarber)
Well mine is a little different, if my car will moderately over-heat with a full system. Fans will not turn on and coolant is not pushing out into the reservoir. I suppose after I get my radiator I will be able to better diagnose.
10-08-2007, 02:08 AM
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Re: (thinknology)
Any suggestions/good references/brands/DIY for headgasket, water pump, timing belts and such?...
yee haw
Modified by thinknology at 7:35 AM 10/8/2007
yee haw
Modified by thinknology at 7:35 AM 10/8/2007
10-08-2007, 09:30 AM
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Re: (thinknology)
http://www.helminc.com
btw, that must have been a really dense ground hog lol...I hit a racoon and it didnt do anything
btw, that must have been a really dense ground hog lol...I hit a racoon and it didnt do anything
10-08-2007, 09:31 AM
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Re: (k24em2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by k24em2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.helminc.com
btw, that must have been a really dense ground hog lol...I hit a racoon and it didnt do anything</TD></TR></TABLE>
Planing on getting that service manual already.
The thing was huge, I thought I ran over it with my tire because it lifted my car... tore some **** up...
btw, that must have been a really dense ground hog lol...I hit a racoon and it didnt do anything</TD></TR></TABLE>
Planing on getting that service manual already.
The thing was huge, I thought I ran over it with my tire because it lifted my car... tore some **** up...
10-09-2007, 02:24 AM
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Re: (GIXXERMAN83)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GIXXERMAN83 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd check the water pump, sounds like coolant is not flowing thru the system.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Negative...
I got the radiator to stop leaking for a little bit this weekend. So I ran some "tests", when I tried to burp the system, it just wouldn't happen. And am I missing something or am I blind because I did NOT find a bleed valve on this thing. But I pulled a sensor out of the top of the thermostat to try to bleed it at the highest spot. Air just kept pumping out.
But on the good side of things, since all the air was flowing out of that spot and not getting trapped in the system, I learned: That my waterpump is fine, all my hoses are fine, my heater still works and everything else seems to be ok. I'm just building pressurized air pockets in the system... and we all know what that means.
So I'll be tearing my head off next weekend prob.
Negative...
I got the radiator to stop leaking for a little bit this weekend. So I ran some "tests", when I tried to burp the system, it just wouldn't happen. And am I missing something or am I blind because I did NOT find a bleed valve on this thing. But I pulled a sensor out of the top of the thermostat to try to bleed it at the highest spot. Air just kept pumping out.
But on the good side of things, since all the air was flowing out of that spot and not getting trapped in the system, I learned: That my waterpump is fine, all my hoses are fine, my heater still works and everything else seems to be ok. I'm just building pressurized air pockets in the system... and we all know what that means.
So I'll be tearing my head off next weekend prob.
10-09-2007, 07:46 PM
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Re: (thinknology)
Hey think, i would use an OEM gasket and make sure you mill the head down like 16 thousands of an inch to get a nice flat surface, with an iron block and aluminum head, our heads will warp and if not milled, the headgasket will only leak in a short while.
10-10-2007, 02:32 AM
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Re: (GIXXERMAN83)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GIXXERMAN83 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey think, i would use an OEM gasket and make sure you mill the head down like 16 thousands of an inch to get a nice flat surface, with an iron block and aluminum head, our heads will warp and if not milled, the headgasket will only leak in a short while.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I'm already planning on getting the head checked/milled.
OEM gasket... see I thought about that... but if there's problems with the OEM (apparently there is considering all the blown HG stories), it makes me kinda skittish using a OEM. But I haven't really seen and aftermarket ones that seem they would get the job done better.
Any body heard of or know of aftermarket HGs that hold up better?
Yeah I'm already planning on getting the head checked/milled.
OEM gasket... see I thought about that... but if there's problems with the OEM (apparently there is considering all the blown HG stories), it makes me kinda skittish using a OEM. But I haven't really seen and aftermarket ones that seem they would get the job done better.
Any body heard of or know of aftermarket HGs that hold up better?
