dinwiddie1985

I have a 96 accord 4cyl 2.2L with AOYA automatic transmission. I am about to rebuild the transmission because the car no longer drives at all except in reverse. This will be the first time ive ever worked on a transmission other than checking the fluid. I was looking for the rebuild kit and need to know what all i need to do the rebuild. I know i need a good amount of fluid the tranny lube stuff and i need to do a coolant flush. Other than that, is the master rebuild kit all i would need our would i need any other transmission parts that would not be included in the master rebuild kit for some reason? Also, does anyone have any tips for me that may help during the rebuild?

MAD_MIKE

Depends on the company that makes the kit. Some come with barely anything, others come with parts you will not need.

I would crack the case open first and inspect all the parts before ordering anything.

Clevor

Rebuilding any automatic tranny is not for the feint of heart. I did do a Ford AOD but TechnicalVideos.com has an excellent video covering each step in detail so it was easy, but I still had to buy $500 in transmission tools like clutch spring compressor, seal installation kit, snap ring pliers, and other specialty tools. Some could be used on any tranny build however.

I am currently doing a BX7A on a 2000 Accord V-6 and running into all kinds of problems since only guides available are blurry YouTube videos shot with a cell phone. You need to remove and replace sections of the tranny several times so you get a feel on what's right, and so you can remember how to put it back together again.

The constant mesh trannies on these Hondas are a PITA to work on compared to the ones on U.S. cars with V-8s, which is a Borg Warner patented design. On the Hondas, you have to remove 3 large end nuts on the shaft and have to use pullers to remove topside gears. Then you have to pry off a top tranny cover, which isn't easy to get off. I ended up using a 10 lb slide hammer for autobody work, using a hook attachment to snag on protuberances on the outside casting.

Even with a clutch spring compressor, it's tricking reinstalling the spring because the spring retainer hangs up on the edge of the spring, so you have to pry the clutch pack sideways while compressing the spring until the retainer slides past. Ideally you need two guys to do this.

I took off the clutch pack from the 1st/2nd clutch pack and figured there was no piston underneath since I couldn't see any so I put it back together. I tried compressed air in the holes in the shaft but nothing was coming out. I found I was fooling myself after I did the 3rd/4th clutch pack. Oh Oh, there is one there (the two O-rings need to be changed). So now I gotta disassemble the 1st/2nd clutch pack again and reinstall the tricky clutch spring retainer. I just bought a 20" Channellock plier so I can grip the outer shaft on the piston to pull it out since there is nothing else to grab to pull the piston out. Also if you **** the piston when you put it back in and it jams, oh boy.

While putting in one of the square edge seals on the main shaft I broke it as it's quite fragile so now have to get another one from the dealer as the rebuild kit had no spares.

I also found my clutch pack clearances are way too tight with the new Raybestos clutch discs and plates! I gotta take the 1-2-3-4 clutch packs out, mike them, and then juggle the clutch end plates to see if I can get proper clearances. If not, gotta buy new plates at $15 a piece. To tell ya the truth, I don't think this is critical and I bet a lot of pros don't bother to check it when they change out the clutch disks.

One problem I am having is keeping everything clean and free of debris. I don't have the luxury of a state-of-the-art rebuild facility so I do the best I can and put stuff in zip lock bags after I reassemble stuff.

To do things right, you need a dial indicator, also a runout indicator, and an indicator stand. If you follow the Sonnax valve body kit to the letter, you will also need a depth micrometer and 0-1" micrometer to measure the pump gear and well. I happen to have $2500 of precision measuring tools because I used to rebuild and blueprint race motors.

I do believe the only way to totally rebuild the tranny right is to do it yourself, since there are so many places the pros can cut corners. Replacing the clutch discs is ridiculously easy once you get the top gears and upper two covers off; I bet a lot of pros just do this and call it a rebuild and replace at $3500 a shot. They did not fix what was creating the slippage in the first place, or they didn't remove clutch debris clogging up the valve bodies, so the rebuilt tranny fails again.

Another thing to remember is make one little mistake, and it will cost you in time and money. Leave out a check ball in the valve body, nick an O-ring during installation, damage a seal during installation, or put a thrust ring on backwards and you will only find out after you replace the tranny and drive the car around. Maybe that's where a reputable tranny rebuilder with 30+ years of experience might be worth the money.

LSUfan71

Great post

You just about convinced me to not rebuild. Not trying to hi-jack the thread but...

I bought a 2001 Accord EX 3.0L V6 for my 16yo son. Previous owner hit a concrete curb and busted a whole in the transmission casing, dumped the tranny fluid onto someone's parking lot. I heard the engine run and it sounds fine. The rest of the car looks great. Got the car for $600, so I'm not in it for much cash.

I found a guy who had 2 or 3 B7XA transmissions on the floor of his storage unit, I know I should assume they're bad. Anyway, I got one for $80 and all I know about it is that the exterior of the casing is intact (which is more than I can say for the current tranny). The guy I got it from says he "can't remember" what the condition was before it was pulled

Question: I was planning a rebuild but maybe I should just pop in the used transmission I have and let my kid drive it till it fails
What do you think? Anyone else?

Clevor

The fact he had 2-3 of them maybe is a good sign. I had to pay the going Craigslist rate for mine: $450, from a guy who was parting out a wreck with front end damage. A car like this is a good candidate, since the assumption is the tranny was OK.

You need to realize if a tranny is bad, not sure worth it to do it yourself. Because the clutch debris will score up some critical areas in the aluminum valve body castings. If the friction plates got worn, metal particles may have damaged bearings so those are $$$ and will need to be pulled out so you need special tools. If the valve body tolerances are off you need to sand them down or buy a new one. Problem is, trannies being rebuilt all have some problem in the first place.

Turns out the tranny I bought was indeed fine. Although there was the usual 1" buildup of sludge around the drain plug, none of the screens were clogged and my pump clearance is tight at 0.0017" (<0.003 is recommended by Sonnax). Yeah, I had to measure it using a depth micrometer and mike on the pump gear like they said, no feeler gauge.

Funny thing is the 1st/2nd clutches look new, but the 3rd/4th have some wear, but I swear the tranny does not look rebuilt. Who knows? I found out the way to remove balky valve body end plugs is use the snap ring pliers -Duh. The plugs have a recessed hole and the plier tips will fit inside and pull inside out.

One hangup is the damn Honda gaskets stick to the housing so bad, I have to take it to a shop to boil out the casting. I think they use hot alkali. I have rebuilt engines/trannies before and removed many used gaskets, but the Honda one is ridiculous! It would take me 3 hrs to scrape the whole thing off using a scraper and hammer, risking a miscue and damaging the valve body surface. I hope to find a tranny shop today who will clean the casting for a reasonable fee.

Also the clutch pack clearances are way too tight. I think I got grease under the pistons so I have to take 'em all apart again and see if this improves things - yeah, gotta remove/replace four clutch spring retainers again! I miked the discs/clutches and they seem OK. Hate to buy new clutch packs when the ones I got are Raybestos.

When I rebuilt a Ford AOD, everything went like clockwork. Had to remove maybe two dozen valves in the valve body with no problem getting them out. Used Alto Red clutch disks and all clearances were right on. No stubborn gaskets to remove, only one end seal to replace. This Honda is turning out to be a PITA. Fortunately this tranny I am rebuilding is a spare so as long as the one in my Accord holds out, not in a rush.

Exgie

and Honda transmission are tricky little things and often don't work right after rebuilds anyway.

LSUfan71

Yea, I was thinking that also. But the car is sitting in my carport waiting for me to take action. I need to so something soon. Not in a huge rush tho...


Looks like I'll throw on the used tranny and see what happens. I suppose it's worth a try.

slowcivic2k

You need to read my thread on automatics, do a search and you'll find it. Rebuilding a transmission is much easier than rebuilding an engine.

LSUfan71

Will look it up. What's discouraging right now are the things I've seen about needing $500 in specialty tools.

MAD_MIKE

If every dedicated tool that will ONLY fit a specific model of car/engine/trans was purchased then yes tool costs would easily surpass $500 or more.
Most generic tools, or improvised tools, are far cheaper and will do the job you need for.

Clutch pack spring compression tool, to install the C clip inside the drum, from OTC is ~$150. I have used Vise Grip locking C-clamps to hold the clutch pack down while installing the C-clip. Cost ~$8-10 each, need about two, and the tool can be used for other things, basically anywhere you need a C-clamp.

LSUfan71

Ok, well this is making things sound much better. I'm thinking some things are available as loaners at local auto parts stores.

Great info, thanks.

slowcivic2k

You will need a transmission piston return spring tool, will cost you about 40 bucks. Not other special tools are truly required except if you refinish the valve body or modify it.

Use heat or cold to remove and install parts when a slight interference fit is specified. The chance of damage is much less likely with this method of removing bearings and other press fit parts.

A typical noob rebuild which requires some tools is about 650 bucks for most Honda Tranmsissions. Includes converter, clutches/steels/pistons, fluid of your choice, misc tools and sealers, and a valve modification kit ($100).

Transmission Clutch Spring Compressor Remover Tool | eBay

LSUfan71

Thanks again. I'm going to drain the transmission; clean/dry the cracks well and apply JB Weld. This had been attempted once before but the JB Weld was applied to surfaces still soiled with leaked tranny fluid, so a steady leak remained.

I'll see how it performs and how well I can stop the leak. I had assumed internal transmission damage after the impact but I do not know for a fact. This will only cost a can of brake cleaner, JB Weld, and some tranny fluid; worth a try.

LSUfan71

Is there a noticeable performance difference between JB Weld and the Permatex brand "Steel Weld"? Anyone?

MAD_MIKE

Meh same kinda stuff.

FWIW, I know of a fellow who cracked his aluminum oilpan. Tried the JB weld, but it didn't stick, so he used some oil resistant flex sealant. That goop you buy in a spray can to seal that bothersome leak. Worked for him until he sold the heap. So that might be a better option if you cannot get a properly cleaned crack.

slickgeek

Have a clean workspace and figure out a good way to organize parts and tools.

Many master techs don't even like doing trans rebuilds.

slowcivic2k

Many technicians cannot perform rebuilds simply because of liability. It is simply too expensive in terms of labor and parts to guarantee the quality of any rebuilt unit. Don't take this
in a fearful manner. Most units have a few basic problems that are easily remedied. You have to understand the shop has to make a dollar, and as such they will spend the least
amount possible to get you on the road, be it 5,000 or 10,000 miles.

I personally advocate rebuilding because the unit you have will have certain problems. Not every casting or model is the same. It is best to rebuild the unit you have, if possible, to
prevent unexpected future problems. This of course will require education on the part of you (which Honda-Tech exists for). It is to your advantage to ask technical questions
regarding your rebuild. I have been through this nearly 100 times already. Nothing is perfect: You must ask yourself: Is it worth the money to rebuild?, or to sell the car as is.
Owning a vehicle requires maintenance. If you cannot meet the maintenance end, sell it to someone who can. If you choose to educate yourself in this regard, you will be one
of the few who can service a transmission, and also save yourself a heap of cash because of it.

Don't sell yourself short, a transmission is only as complicated as you make it.

Clevor

So far I have taken the BX7A apart, cleaned all the castings, got the valve bodies assembled, but have run into one problem: the clutch pack clearances are way off, using the deluxe, extreme duty Raybestos discs and plates in the Transtar rebuild kit (which cost $280 alone). The 1st, 2nd, and 4th clutch packs have zero clearance whereas the 3rd clutch pack has too much: 0.057".

When I rebuilt a Ford AOD with an Alto Red rebuild kit, I had absolutely no problem getting allowable clutch clearances with the plates and disks supplied.

As it is right now, unless I get different clutch packs, I'd have to use a very thick top plate for the 1st/2nd packs from Honda (0.083") to get the right clearance on the 3rd clutch, and on the other clutch packs, I'd have to get the thinnest 3rd/4th top plate available from Honda and mill that down to below 0.079", which is the stock thickness of the clutch plates. Not sure that is safe to do on the top plate, which might break under the load of the 1st/2nd clutch packs.

I presume there is a reason Honda offers thicker top plates on the 1st/2nd clutch packs compared to the 3rd/4th clutch packs, because the shifting is usually harsher there, so maybe it's not a good idea to mix top plates. I'd have to use a really thick 1st/2nd plate Honda has for the 3rd clutch, and use the THINNEST plate Honda has for the 3rd/4th clutch and mill that down to use on the 1st and 2nd clutch packs! Any suggestions?

I am also trying to contact Transtar right now because this is ridiculous trying to jump thru hoops getting proper clutch clearances when you drop $280 for their rebuild kit. I double checked and I have the right kit for my car.

I also notice the Raybestos clutch discs are sorta 'wooley', not of hard material like the stock discs. So when you stack them, they take up more space. Mike them and they compress down. Won't all this loose, wooly material block the mesh screens and filters in these Honda trannies?

slowcivic2k

The 3rd gear steel plates are .040" and the rest are .030". You should have these parts installed for each gear:

1st: Piston/Wave Spring/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Pressure Plate.

2nd: Piston/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Pressure Plate.

3rd: Piston/Wave Spring/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Pressure Plate. (.040" Steels)

4th: Piston/Wave Spring/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Steel/Clutch/Pressure Plate.

In Total, you should have 6 Steels/Clutches for 1 and 2, 4 Steels/Clutches for 3 and 4. The pockets for 3rd and 4th gear look the same depth, but they are not. IF you have a clutch assembly that is too tall, you have a thick steel in the wrong spot. The thick steels have a Raybestos stamp on one side.

The clutch material will compact under pressure, don't worry about it, that is normal. Do not interchange clutch pressure plates. If you have mixed them up you can tell which one goes where based on the wear pattern on the backside of the pressure plate. In all of the B7 units I have rebuilt, I have replaced two pressure plates. They were so badly warped due to overheating they were beyond use. I mean totally smoked.

The snap ring should simply fall into place, with a very minor (.004" or so) clearance.

Clevor

Slowcivic2k, all the steels in my Transtar kit are the same thickness, around 0.079". All the Raybestos discs are around 0.076". These meet the Honda factory spec. You say the steels in the 3rd/4th packs are different? I will mike the stock steels when I get home to see if they are indeed thinner than the Raybestos.

I do have 6 discs/steels in the 1st/2nd and 4 each in the 3rd/4th. I did not mike them but I do notice the piston depth is different in the 3rd/4th. Still, I get 0.057" (max is 0.030) clearance in the 3rd and none in the 4th using the Raybestos stuff! For the 1st/2nd packs, I can barely get the snap ring on.

I miked all the stock pressure plates and they are about the same: 0.1010 to 0.1160.

I have contacted Alto Red for their clutch packs and the price is very reasonable: $44 for the packs, but shipping to HI is $55. They sell a rebuild kit for $135 which is way cheaper than the $280 I paid for the Transtar, but not sure that includes new clutch spring retainers.

BTW, I have contacted Transtar about the problem and no reply so far. I plan to contact Raybestos also. If both blow me off, I don't recommend their kits; get the Alto Red. I can't believe they make stuff for Hondas, as their discs and Kolene steels are designed for racing or extreme duty apps. I wonder if the shifting would be too harsh with the Altos?

bsdubois

Clevor,

Please update as to the response(s), if any, you receive concerning Raybestos parts and the issues you have indicated. I purchased raybestos drums and rotors because of the brand name and it is one my Father used for years. I was disappointed to learn they are made in the People's Republic of Communist Red China. Thank you for providing information for transmission kits Made in the USA. I am happy to pay more if it is Made in the USA. Evidently the USA parts you found are priced the same, or cheaper, than the raybestos parts. I know the quality will be better and each USA purchase helps to keep people working here. Please update as you complete the rebuild. I have two transmissions I need to rebuild. One is a Honda rebuild in the 2000 Honda Odyssey. This is the fourth transmission in our Odyssey (the original and three rebuilds). This is the reason I will never purchase another Honda automobile. The other transmission is in a 1997 Honda Civic DX hatchback. I hope to rebuild/reseal the engine and rebuild/reseal the transmission. Thank you again for your kind assistance!

Clevor

Actually Alto Red got back to me and they use a special Honda SAS type of clutch material, not their red clutches, maybe because shifting is too firm for non racing apps. I am not positive though that all components of their rebuild kits are made in the USA, but they used to be and they advertise that.

Right now my problem is American Powertrain Warehouse (APW) and Transtar, as neither have replied to my e-mail requesting a new clutch pack or steels. APW probably sent me the wrong clutch pack. I measured the stock steels and got 0.079" for 1st/2nd/4th and 0.090" for 3rd, as the Helm manual states. I got all 0.081+ steels in the Raybestos kit they sent me. Each steel is around 0.0025" over, so 6 steels already eats up 0.015" clearance,with specs being 0.017-0.045", so that explains my problem, as well as the excess clearance in the 3rd clutch pack.

I could reuse the stock steels (a local tranny shop said to sand them with 400 grit wet/dry), but why should I go thru all that trouble when I paid $280 for the rebuild kit and it was supposed to include the right steels??? Plus the old bottom plates of the 1st/3rd/4th clutch packs have a groove worn into them from the spring on top the piston, and should not be reused.

If APW blows me off, I will mention it on this post. I don't think it's Transtar's fault. My kit was broken down when it was shipped to me to reduce shipping costs, it didn't come in a long box like the tranny shop said they get it, so APW probably sent me the wrong clutch pack.

I also put in the Sonnax valve body kit. Not sure this will improve reliability except with the torque converter burnups, but it should improve shift quality.

I was surprised by the cooperation of local tranny shops in giving me free info and tips. All I had to do was ask.

Clevor

UPDATE:

APW sent me another set of steels and these mike out OK, but still, too tight on the #1/#2 clutch packs. I can get by on the #3/#4 by getting thinner pressure plates from Honda, costing me $40 including freight.

On the #1/#2, decided to get Alto Red (AR) clutch packs since I would have to use the real thin pressure plates (PP) for the #3/#4 clutches, not recommended as it's below Honda spec for the application. I have to fork out maybe $60 for the AR packs. I am not a happy camper about these workarounds.

I do not recommend the Raybestos discs. They are woolly SOBs and while they mike to spec (because you compress them when you do this), when you actually put them in the clutch packs they take up space somehow. Well what options are there? Heard good things about Borg Warner but they do not make stuff for the BX7A. I am hoping the ARs will drop in and I can get the proper clearances, if by getting thinner #1/#2 Honda PPs. On a side note, I have talked a bit to local tranny shops and they are not a bit surprised about my issues with these Honda trannies.

Another tip: use a micrometer for measuring thicknesses. Even a digital caliper with one of those 0.00005" readout screens is easy to read inaccurate, up to 0.004" off. Using a mike (one of those 0.00005" LCD jobs), the used PPs pretty much are exactly the thickness in the Honda manual. There is very little wear on them. Take the thicknesses right off the numbers engraved on the plate: #1, 2, 8, 6, etc., no need to mike them.

And on this Transtar kit, if it indeed was packaged by Transtar, Raybestos steels have their logo stamped on it. Many of the steels I got originally and for the #1/2/4 clutches had no imprinting on it so who knows where they're from. The 2nd time around, I was sent 0.091 Raybestos steels for the #3 clutch.

slowcivic2k

Raybestos only brands the thicker steels on Honda's because that is what is required. Borgwarner produces OEM **** for domestics, if you really want to fight the US/Import war. End play should only be checked when installed. All new frictions will shed when new, its like any other friction part.

I must say you cannot condemn a manufacturer for shitty materials unless you have used them. Every car I own has a rebuilt transmission (because its cheaper to buy them blown up) and I can tell you right now, I have no problems with the clutch material at all. It shifts fast, hard (which I piloted the oil pump for), and is predictable. I have rebuilt Odyssey 4 speed units that have over 50,000 miles on the rebuild with no problems with Raybestos clutches and steels. If you want made in the USA, buy a Camaro or Mustang.

Rebuilding a transmission is not easy, but I can tell you it is easier than rebuilding an engine or ABS module.

Stumblingbear

I just bought a 2000 Honda civic ex d16y8. The transmission keeps slipping into false neutral. I'l have to turn it off and and back on and it'l drive a little bit and slips again. Can someone plz help me????