reklipz

I took my 1991 Honda Accord on a ~50 mile drive yesterday (Saturday); longest it's ever been on since I've owned it. On my way back after getting off the interstate, I started noticing a strange noise; it sounded like a mechanical "whirring" noise. I stopped at a friends house on the way home to investigate before finishing to my home.

While at a stand still with the shifter in neutral and the clutch pedal fully out, I could hear the noise and it changed pitch with RPM of the engine. The noise went away when I pressed the clutch in. My friends and I weren't sure what to make of it; the car seemed to drive just fine, so I finished driving it home intending to work on it the following morning. On the drive home I listened for the noise in different states of the mechanics. When at speed with the transmission in gear and the clutch pedal pressed to the floor, I could still hear the noise; changing gears changed the noise slightly, but it was present in more or less all gears. Sometimes, with the transmission in neutral and while travelling at speed, the noise would be intermittent and/or disappear.

Today (Sunday) I decided to check/change the transmission fluid, as I noticed some spots under the car near the transmission (passenger side of vehicle). I wasn't sure if they were from my vehicle or not, but I made the assumption they were, and with the transmission as suspect anyway, I decided this the best move. However, I was unable to get the fill bolt out of the transmission, so I decided I would drive the short 5 mile drive to my father's place where I had access to better tools. I got no less than about two miles from my home, and then came the problems.

I was shifting from gear (not sure which, 3rd or 4th, but could have been 5th) to neutral to stop at a light. I don't believe I downshifted to engine brake (the transmission is picky about shifting into gears sometimes, so sometimes I don't have time to find the gear to downshift, and it's simpler to just use the brakes). So, I come to a full stop with the clutch pedal pressed to the floor and the shifter in neutral (I didn't let out the clutch while braking, in case the light turned green), I let out the clutch, and then engine dies. I wasn't sure what caused the engine to die, and the light was changing green, so I started the engine, holding the clutch pedal to the floor I shifted the shifter into first, and started to take off from the stop as normal. I made it maybe a half inch before my tires squealed (they're due for a change) and I lurched forward and my engine stalled. I threw on my hazard lights, and tried to shift out of first into neutral; I had a real tough time getting the shifter out of first, but I was able to. Now I'm a bit baffled as to what just happened, so I then started the car, and began to slowly let out the clutch pedal (with the shifter still in neutral); as I did, the engine started to drop in RPM (indicating the transmission was still in gear or such); so at this point I called it quits.

I got a friend to help push the car out of the street and into a neighborhood. With the shifter in neutral, as we pushed the car we could hear the engine turning over; so I got in the car and held the clutch in while we pushed. Once in the neighborhood, I started the car and slowly feathered out the clutch; the car started moving forward like it was in a highish gear. I could very likely have gotten the car to go with the clutch all the way out with a feather/gas orchestration, but I didn't want to destroy my clutch.

Fast forward to today, Monday afternoon. I removed the fill bolt on the transmission, and then removed the drain bolt. About a quarter cup of fluid came out of the drain plug; nice and dark brown. I filled the transmission up with about a quart and a half of 10W30, and with the front end on jack stands, I started the car and slowly let the clutch out. The wheels turned, with the engine running at about 1K RPM, the speedometer read about 34 MPH (I believe, I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure this is correct). Now, I don't know the gearing in the transmission, but from these numbers, I should be able to find out what gear she is stuck in. I pressed the clutch to the floor, and worked my way through the gears with the shifter a few times. I was able to shift into every gear except for 5th, which I'll assume is the one that's stuck.

For the record, the little bit of oil that did come out did not contain any metal shavings or otherwise. I didn't check the oil I put in, as I didn't have enough oil to replace it with had I drained it, but I can and will do this for anyone that asks, along with any other suggestions.

I'm not sure if this is something wrong with the shift linkage, something in the transmission (a shift fork?), or something worse? And any insight on collateral damage? I found a few articles on other transmissions that indicate similar problems that were resolved by putting an "operating prawl" (some sort of arm in the transmission) back into place, and viola, things were beautiful again. I think this is what's going on here as well, and I may need to drop / open the transmission.

How difficult is it to drop / open the transmission on my Honda? I'm certain folks have done it before; perhaps I can do what I need without even needing to take it out...

reklipz

Post edited for clarity, readability, and information update. Thanks for the assistance guys, it's much appreciated.

P_Adams

It sounds like you may have a bad throw-out bearing. The labor to address this is the same as replacing the clutch assembly ... so I'd suggest that if it hasn't been done to this point, now would be the time to do everything.

P

Lost Again

I know P_A stated a throwout bearing but....sounds more like it is is stuck in a gear....and the fact that you pulled the drain plug and a quater cup of oil came out....sorry hate to jump there but I think it burned up to lack of oil.

Something like 3 or more quarts of oil should have come out....again, just me.

reklipz

I just finished dropping the transmission. The transmission itself wasn't so bad, it was all the rusted parts on the suspension that caused the most headache. I had to cut the lower ball stud and nut off on the driver side; the castellation nut was cracked/rusted/stripped.



Anyway, how can I check the throw out bearing? I have it in my hand (aka, not test via clutch pedal while it's in the car). If I give it a spin, it will spin for about 4/5 times. It makes a "whirrrr"ing noise if I hold it parallel to the ground (as though the shaft was perpendicular to the ground, not how it normally rides in the transmission).

As Lost Again said, I believe it is stuck in gear; especially since when the clutch is depressed (when there would be pressure on the throw out bearing) there is no noise...

I'm about to crack open the transmission, is there anything I should be cautious of? Any tips/tricks?

reklipz

I'm currently cleaning the housing in preparation to open the case and see what's going on.

I don't have a Helm service manual for the transmission, though. I couldn't find one online or on eBay, either. If anyone has one available, I would greatly appreciate their help.

I've found a few picture threads and videos going over similar transmissions, but nothing exactly the same as the H2A5 (there is a second sticker saying "MPT3") I have. It looks like I need to remove the shifter cable attachment assembly (none of the videos have theirs attached; upon first glance, it didn't look like this came off, but perhaps the matings are hidden under all of the grime). After that, I think I need to remove the bolts around the case, then remove the case seal on the end and release the snap ring, and then I should be good to open it up.

Some of the threads / videos I saw showed bolts on the outside of the transmission holding the spring / detent ball; are there any on this transmission, or are they all on the inside? Not knowing the torque specifications also makes me a bit leery about opening it up; a service manual would be a great help.

--
Nate

reklipz

Minus the half broken bolt near the diff, everything went well. I'll post pics and a short writeup of how I got her open in case anyone else is wondering.

reklipz

Okay, so here are some pics of the shafts. Click the images to enlarge.

Main shaft (bottom) next to counter shaft (top).


Top of main shaft as taken out.


Top of main shaft, top most piece removed.


Top of main shaft, next top most piece removed.


Synchro removed (not sure what this one is for...).


Needle bearing sleeve removed.


Synchro collar removed (shims are from bottom of shaft, ignore).










So, anyone see what's gone bad? What is the upper black piece with the little hook on it called / for? And the portion underneath it? What is the synchro up there on top for? Sorry for the bombardment of questions, but it looks like this guy should be a fairly simple fix, in my mind, but I'm not sure how to begin.

reklipz

I was able to pop the 5th gear synchro loose; that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Looking between 5th gear and 4th gear, I can see some small metal bits. I assume this is from the needle bearing under the 5th gear? The 4th gear is a bit stiffer to rotate than the other three gears as well, but it appears to rotate smoothly.

Is it worth replacing the 5th (and 4th, perhaps) gear needle bearings myself, or would it be wiser/cheaper to just buy a used tranny?

reklipz

I started removing gears tonight.

I pulled the synchro collar hub off, no issues there. I then pulled 5th gear from the shaft (it should normally come right off by hand, along with the needle bearing underneath it), and it pulled the sleeve that it and 4th gear ride around off with it. Now, the sleeve, the needle bearing, and 5th gear, are stuck together as a unit. I'm going to need a metal plate to push the puller against (to sit along the sleeve inside the gear) so I can pull the gear. I'm worried about it scoring the collar or the inside of the gear, however... A new collar is $36, not so bad. A new gear is $106; it might be worth buying a used transmission at that point ($250).

Lost Again

I'd start calling around and see what kind of prices you can get.....

reklipz

I separated 5th gear/bearing/collar. There are photos in this gallery, toward the end:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1045915...9/Transmission


The collar isn't worth trying to clean up, a new one is only $36.

My only worries are with the gear. The inside looks... pitted, if you will. It's been suggested that I lightly sand the inside with 800 grit to smooth out the pitting and then to stick it all back together with the new collar / bearings and call it a day.

Does anyone have lots of experience with transmissions or this sort of thing; is the gear still usable with the bit of "pitting" that it has? The photos aren't the best in the world, everything appears magnified in them. There is no scarring around the circumference or laterally across the gear, that's just oil marks from where I ran my finger/a towel across.

reklipz

I replaced the bearing and collar, and she drives just fine. One of the transmission case bolts broke off when opening, so there is one bolt missing. It doesn't seem to be leaking at all, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Also, one of the transmission mounting bolts is missing... I'm not sure if it was ever there to begin with when I got it, but I'll have to stop at the hardware store and try to find a replacement.