Olias

Hello all. I have struggled with this problem for 3 weeks now trying to read every thread both here and on other Honda threads and although I find tons of similar situations none of the things they all suggested has thus far worked. Here's my story.....

My wife's 91' Accord EX Wagon won't start now. Just out of the blue. She drove to work one day, no problems, no weird sounds, not lights or any other signs of trouble what so ever. She gets in it to go to lunch later that day and now all it will do is crank but won't turn over/start. I'll cut to the chase and tell you what I have done and replaced.

1st thing I did was bought a new EFI. No joy. I have verified that the fuel pump is working. I replaced the fuel filter and spark plugs. I did a spark test and am getting good spark on all 4. The distributor is only 1 year old. Had to replace it due to a faulty TDC sensor in it. Even with the bad TDC sensor the car stills tarted and ran it just started to sputter/stall out over a certain speed/rpms. I know there's some other sensor in the distributor as well (don't know what it's called), could that be the problem?


I have done a fuel pressure check and that's fine pressure was like 43 psi. I did a pressure check on the FPR at the same time and that appears to be fine. One thing that was kind of interesting during the fuel pressure check is that when I turned on the key (not all the way to crank the engine) the pressure goes right up to about 43 PSI and then when it peaks out you can hear a click (relay) and it immediately goes back down to zero. Is it supposed to do that. Shouldn't the pressure stay up there? I held onto (while still plugged in) the EFI relay hanging down from under my dash while doing this and verified that the clicking noise was coming from there. Like I say though, it is brand new.

The next thing I was going to do was check my timing marks to make sure they are all aligned at TDC, but I can not get one of the two bolts off that holds the top part of the timing belt cover on because of the engine mount that's in the way. And jacking up (supporting) the engine just to remove that one stinkin' bolt is a little beyond me.

I can't confirm any codes for sure. When I 1st jumped the OBDI plug I thought I had a 7, 8, and then maybe a 1 and 2. Then I also realized that instead of getting my codes the usual way, i.e. the CEL flashing it was actually my "S" light. Problem is, now since I've disconnected the battery a few times to try and reset the ECU it won't throw ANY codes now. Probably because the car hasn't been able to start again since then and can't/won't throw more codes until it does.

Oh, I also pulled the TCU or what ever it's called (the unit right next to the ECU under the rug on the passenger floorboard area) to check for a supposedly notorious resistor and capacitor that go bad. No joy there either. Everything looks perfect. So, that's my story thus far. I apologize for the lengthy post but have found that in the past folks want as much info. as possible. Any suggestions? Thanks very much in advance.

-B

MAD_MIKE

Check out this link and go through all the troublshooting applicable.

http://techauto.awardspace.com/ignition.html

Hidenplanvew

Have you tested the Main relay and ignition switch? to replace its 90 for the switch and 50 for the main relay from honda

Olias

Thanks for the reply's guys, very much appreciated. Mike, I'm still reading through all the stuff via the link you gave. Great stuff, a lot of which I've already tried but still good stuff to know and maybe I'll see something I've forgotten.

Hidenplanvew.....if by "Main Relay" you mean the EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection Relay) yes, that was the 1st thing I replaced. As far as the "ignition switch", no. Don't know where that is exactly and will have to look into that a bit more. Once I locate it is there any way to test it before automatically replacing it? Thanks.

Oh, btw....does anyone who is familiar with doing fuel pressure checks know whether what I described is normal/correct in that the EFI relay is supposed to click (I assume shut off) as soon as the pressure reaches max and go back down to 0? Seems to me that it should stay on or that the system should maintain pressure even if that shuts off, but I have no clue as this is the 1st fuel pressure test I have ever done. Thanks again.

-B

Edit:RE the Ignition switch.....duh. I know where that is and found a How To on checking it.. Now I'm just wondering if the "click" that I'm supposed to be hearing when I engage the key is the click that I hear in the EFI Relay (which I do hear) or in the ignition switch itself??

Hidenplanvew

Fuel pressure shouldnt drop to zero, theres a valve in the pump that after it primes should hold some pressure for starting. All it will do is make you have to crank the car alittle longer. It you have someone who can test the wave form of the pump then you can see if its spinning correctly. My guess is test the ignituin swith, its a commin problem.

Olias

Thanks once again. Yes, I will be testing the ignition switch tomorrow. Just watched a detailed video on how to do that and feel pretty confident I can do that. We are talking about checking the continuity on the plug end that goes to the fuse box,correct? If so, yes, I can do that.

-B

Olias

Ok, here's my results of doing a continuity test on the 5 wires in the ignition plug that goes to main fuse panel. All wires and positions tested correctly EXCEPT for one. That is the Ignition 2 wire (solid yellow). In position #1 I am not supposed to have continuity and I do. Positions #2 and #3 are ok though. Do you think this is enough to indicate a faulty ignition switch?

Here's a couple other weird things going on. The 1st has been going on for a long time, like the past 2-3 years. Periodically when the key is removed from the ignition the car will still beep (not alarm...but key in ignition warning). Currently after doing my testing today on the ignition switch I can not get it to turn off. Usually I can put the key in, turn it to the #2 position, let it do it's 6 beeps and then pull the key out and all is good. Not any more. Secondly, since I did my continuity tests this morning the car will now not engage at all! Meaning, the dash lights come on, I can work all my accessories etc., but now the starter will not crank! The battery is fully charged, I have checked ALL fuses and have ensured that the plug for the ignition is firmly seated back in it's spot on the fuse panel.

I am totally stumped. Any ideas? Thanks.

-B

the_penetrator

try the ground on the intake manifold for your fuel injectors......yes replace ignitio switch its faulty or test the wires get a schematic on the switch test why u have reistance the other stuff u didnt have to buy alternator and fuel injectors but other than that go to the junkyard or what i do i buy everything find the issue and refund all that i didnt have to replace

Olias

Hey all. Just wanted to check back in and let you know that I'm still working on my problem but give you an update and ask for some help.....

I think I know my problem. Bad "Shift Solenoid 'A' circuit open or shorted" and "Shift Solenoid 'B' circuit open or shorted. That's what the OBD1 codes are for on my Honda when the "S" light is flashing. Codes 7 & 8 to be exact. Guess what.....that's what codes my car originally threw when I checked. Duh! Should have started there first. Not saying for sure that this IS the problem but my gut is telling me so since I have good spark, and gas, good starter, distributor etc.

Now, my question is, can someone tell me in layman's terms that I'd understand how to test it electrically with my DMM? I found a posting somewhere that described how to clean out the little screen/filters on them but no description on an electronic diagnosis. Also, when removing them for visual inspection/cleaning do I need to remove the Neg. Battery Cable 1st?

Thanks

-B

MAD_MIKE

That link I posted also has transmission troubleshooting in it as well. If for whatever reason you cannot see the links on the upper left corner just click on the link in my signature.

Olias

Thanks again Mike, forgot about that. Guess at this point it doesn't matter though as I just had my bubble burst by someone much more knowledgeable than I in these matters. Turns out it doesn't matter whether my Trans Switch Solenoid(s) are bad or even throwing codes as far as a no start situation. Drat....was really hoping that was it as I can actually get to that part and easily replace it.

Looks like the next thing that I was suggested to try is a Noid Test on my fuel injectors. I'll update after I do that. Thanks again.

-B

Olias

Ok...update time. Out of boredom and curiosity today I stuck my old Distributor back in just to see what would happen. Mind you, this is one that had a bad TDC Sensor (code 8). To my shock after nearly a month of sitting now the darn thing fired up! It did take 2-3 times (cranks), coughed and sputtered and then caught and ran. Idles pretty smoothly everything considered but definitely still a little rough. And of course the CEL comes on and it's throwing a Code 8....bad TDC....no surprise. But the darn thing is running now.

So what does this tell us? Man, if I could take the good (I assume) TDC sensor out of the newer Distributor and stick it in the other one I would, but I don't think it comes out like the Igniter (ICM) does. At first I thought this meant that maybe the ICM in the newer Distributor was bad but according to another mechanic type friend that's been helping me a bad ICM would not cause a no start situation.

So I'm baffled. Any ideas? Even though the car is finally running again, and I am elated, trust me, the actual "problem" still isn't pinpointed or solved. There's no way I'd trust driving it anywhere the way it's running. Oh ya, it also seemed like it wanted to die when I kicked the throttle a little to idle it down. But once Idling it hummed pretty smoothly. So....whatcha think?

-B

Olias

Quick question.....after messing around a little more the car still starts but takes a little longer now to engage and runs pretty rough and acts like it wants to die. The CEL does NOT come on but is throwing a couple codes. I am now getting a Code 5 and Code 1 (I think). That's my question, is 5 fast blinks, pause, and 1 long blink code 5 and one or 15? Reason I ask is that I read somewhere that one long=10, but I'd think that would be if it came first. Also I don't see any code 51 in the OBD1 list so I'm assuming that it's a 5 & 1. Correct? Those two things also correspond with it's current symptoms of running rough.

-B

Lost Again

For s#%& and giggles, take the dang ICM out of the old dist, install in the new one.

In the link, there is a test of the ICM.

Olias

Ok....will do! Stay tuned.

-B

Olias

Ok, I'm back. I did what you said and to my amazement the car not only starts up (but does still take about 7-8 turns by the Starter Motor) and runs fine but it is now not throwing any codes!

Ok, that's cool and all but when sitting still and idling it does this little surge thing. Up and down, up and down. And it definitely wants to kill out. As a matter of fact if I just barely give it gas it will stutter and want to die, but if I goose it it revs real nice like. When actually driving it shifts just fine and runs real smooth. The other weird thing is that if I disconnect the MAP sensor nothing happens, other than the CEL coming on and of course throwing a #5 code indicating that it's malfunctioning. Shouldn't something happen when that is disconnected?

Ok....back to the idling situation. Any ideas on what to adjust or check for that surging problem? I did try to adjust the timing a bit by turning the Dizzy back and forth but it either just died or would barely idle clearly wanting to kill out and doing that surge thing. Gotta be honest to, that with the timing light on it I can not see any mark on the flywheel. Any ideas?

Lost Again

Might have to spin the motor over by hand so you find the marks. Should be a TDC mark and a 15 mark.

Also, so that you are not fighting the ecu, I believe the timing has to be set with the service connector jumped.

Olias

Per someone else's suggestion that has been helping me off and on I did indeed jump the code reader whilst adjusting the timing. I still couldn't see either the white or red marks in the little window. But it just might have been a bit to bright out in the direct sunlight for me to see them even though I'm using a timing light. Mind you, they'd have to be relatively close or that thing would be misfiring or at least running extremely rough if the marks were really no where near the pointer, right? I will give it all another go today.

Oh ya....I need a little clarification on the jumper/timing method please. I want to make sure I'm doing it right. Do I jump the code reader, start the car, adjust timing, and then turn the car off BEFORE I pull the wire out of the jumper? Or do I pull the wire and then turn off the car? Thanks

-B

Olias

Update: I answered my own question.....Jump, turn on, adjust timing, turn off car, undo jumper.....

Ok, I'm a little embarrassed but I've been hooking up my timing light to the wrong spark plug. No wonder I haven't been able to see any timing marks! In my defense someone else a few years ago numbered my cylinders with avery labels and it turns out it's the exact opposite order.

Anyway, here' the current situation and problem. After checking the timing (the correct way) and then turning off the car and removing the jumper and then restarting the car and checking with the timing light my timing marks keep jumping around (up and down). They never go out of sight, just keep jumping up and down in reference to the pointer. Any ideas of what this means and what to check/adjust next? I'm getting real close here and would really like to wrap this up today if possible so any replies as quick as possible would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks guys.

-B

Olias

Okay, one more update. I think I'm 99% there now. I watched some videos on Youtube relating to surging and bad idling etc. Per the videos I found my Fast Idle Valve and started by turning it all the way closed until it started to die out and then opened it a few turns until it was idling a lot smoother. Now the timing marks are staying in place! I took it for a spin and did a bunch of accelerating, punching the gas pedal at different speeds etc., and she responded great and shifted nice and smooth etc. No surging or dying out when punching the pedal at a stop or at any other speeds. The only thing I haven't done yet is a test on my MAP Sensor with my DMM. Will probably do that later today when I have someone who can operate the gas pedal while I'm watching the meter. Any input on all this? Thanks

-B

MAD_MIKE

FWIW, that is the reason why you jumper the ECU when checking/setting timing and idle speed. You can sometimes get away with setting the timing without jumping the blue connector but this is not the proper procedure. With the wire jumpered the ECU will not change timing or idle speed. This allows you to set it to the base specs.

Olias

Update....Ok folks, got er' fixed! Landed up being a bad Distributor. I got a used Genuine OEM Honda Dizzy from a salvage yard and she fires up immediately and runs great now with no surging, hesitations, or killing out. Thanks to everyone here for your help, it is very much appreciated.

-B