DavidWebb

Hey guys, I'm new to the board and trying to do some research on a project I'd like to start and I was hoping you guys may be able to provide me with some insight and answer some questions that I have about the project.

For starters I'd like to purchase a JDM F20B blue-top with the automatic transmission (needs to be auto for my build). I have a few (hopefully) simple questions about this combo:

1. The f20B auto is rated @ 180bhp which is plenty for my application but are there any simple/cheap modifications that I should look into doing while the engine is out of the vehicle? I know hondas are pretty notorious for benefiting from intake manifold swaps and cam changes. Just curious as to if there is anything that is really worth the time/money.

2. I'm finding plenty of blue-top engines for sale from importers but none with the auto trans attached. Is this a standard unit used in other Honda vehicles or a specialty trans for the F20B engine? I want to make sure to get the correct unit but it may be cheaper if I can mix and match them.

3. Does the auto trans come with it's own TCU or wiring harness or just a standard hydraulic-controlled affair? I need to make sure that I order everything to make it work without any surprises.

I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions as I get further into this but these answers should help me get going.

Thanks in advance.

DavidWebb

While searching some other threads I noticed there is also a blue-top H23A with auto trans available that seems to be more popular.

Do you guys have any strong feelings towards either the F-series over the H-series or vice versa? Aside from the H-series making slightly more power I'm not sure of any benefits it may have.

Also, a prime concern for me is exterior dimensions of the engine itself. If , all things being equal, an H23A is more readily available with an auto trans is there any reason NOT to choose it over the F20B?

It's my understanding that the F20B is a newer style of engine while the H-series is older and a generation behind. Is this correct?

Lastly, I'm not seeing any aftermarket parts mentioned for the F20B engine. Is this because it's so rarely used in the states or is it because it's very similar to another engine and parts are interchangeable?

Thanks.

MAD_MIKE

Simple and cheap modifications? Nope
Before dropping it in I would replace all oil seals, balance belt, timing belt and water pump. That would just take the PITA out of doing it in car.
Any decent importer will sell you both as a package.
They may split it off as it may just be people are more likely to use MT.
Gearing will be the main difference, not sure what the ratios are for the F20B DOHC AT.
F20B DOHC engines were used in the SIR/SIR-T cars which were OBDII and used the M6HA transmissions, which were used in the US on 98-02 Accords/97-01 Preludes, and 98-99 2.3 Odyssey and 2.3 CL.
ECU/TCU are combined into a PCM, there are no separate modules, if you purchase an AT engine it would be best to use the AT PCM as it will have the correct timing/fueling tables for the 180HP variant. MT F20B use the H22 S type cams.
Unless you plan on going to OBDI/chipped/piggyback system then the PCM doesn't matter.

Best thing for simple plug & play is to get the complete engine/transmission along with engine harness, PCM, and any underdash harness for the OBDII 16pin port. This way the drivetrain will work like stock.

But if you plan on using the older H4A(90-97 PGM FI Accords) then you will have to ditch the OBDII system and PCM, probably a modified H22AT ECU/TCU would be better.

Same size package with more punch. It has a lower rev limit, but it does not need to rev, it will produce about 20lb-ft more torque compared to the F20B DOHC. For a daily driver/auto car hands down the H23 VTEC will be a better engine.
Depends on what you want.

SOHC F22/23 (125-150HP)series is a tough reliable engine. You have to be a real goof or just bad with maintenance to hurt one. Decent exhaust helps these engines out. VTEC variants really waken up with lower gears.

DOHC F20 (180-200HP)series is still tough, but it is smaller and more of a JDM novelty. Great if you have a tax bracket based on engine size and want to keep out of having anything larger than a 2.0 due to those costs. Otherwise, meh I don't see any point in having it. Unless you like to rev a bit.

H22 VTEC (190-210HP) is the quintessential VTEC car engine. High revving and pulls forever. But its short stroke does require lower gearing to keep the engine in its powerband. And the Preludes were not known for having great MPGs. Not really sure if this is a fault of the high revving engine, or the inability to not get 'hit VTAK y01'.

H23 DOHC(160HP) this big fella was used in 4th gen Preludes as a step between the 135HP F22 and 190HP H22. A great all around engine, more HP/Torque than the typical F series without the drama of the H22. IMO if you don't want/need a screamer and just want a little more power than what an F series can give you, this is the engine to have. Personally I thought this would have been a great engine in larger vehicles like the wagon or Odyssey here in the States.

H23 VTEC(187-197HP) a spicy H23. A lower revving engine than the H22, but with more torque and the same HP. If Honda had made a US Type R Accord, this would have been its engine.

Only differences are head issues of SOHC vs DOHC, and since that really isn't a problem, it kinda falls into the realm of non sequiter.
Only reason is if you have some need to have the F20B fandom, or have a tax bracket to stay within, or plan on racing and the class has a two litre restriction.
No.
F series is a couple years older than the H, but they are pretty much the same. Biggest differences is the H series has the larger bore, and uses the FRM cylinder liner vs the F series with a slightly smaller bore and cast iron cylinder liner.
F20B came about to meet areas where a car with an engine over two litres starts to get heavily taxed. Honda already had the F20B SOHC engine in those markets. Rework the H22 head for use on the smaller engine and now the engine has increased power output 50HP without incurring a tax penalty.

Both.

No real reason to have the F20 when the F22/23, H22/23 can make more HP and torque in the same package.

Block is an 85mm bore F series.
Head is pretty much a H22 VTEC unit.
Only oddball parts would be the rotating assembly, and if anything goes wrong with it, just easier/cheaper to use the 2.2 rotating assembly. Unless there is some goof ball bearing requirements.

DavidWebb

Oh man, Great info. couldn't ask for a better response. So a few follow-up questions:

1. Budget is a slight concern at this point. I'm still putting together a total build cost so I'm trying to make sure I get the right engine without overspending. It seems, in my limited ebay searching, that the H23A blue-top engine is more available but also about twice the cost of the F20B. I'm seeing F20B's for $5-750 and H23A's for $12-1750. Just trying to decide if it's worth the extra coin upfront.

2. I'm looking to make approx 200hp (210whp would be ideal but I'm not a stickler). I was hoping that buying a stock 180bhp engine and then maybe adding a set of cams and a tune would get me where I want to be. I'll have to put a custom exhaust and intake on the car as I doubt anything off the shelf will work. I was thinking at most, intake manifold, cams and a tune. Not planning on boost or even racing really. Just need something reliable and punchy.

3. I read somewhere that the F-series was the precursor to the engine used in the S2k so I just assumed they were phasing out the Hseries and bringing up the Fseries. My misunderstanding.

4. I'll absolutely find a complete package with eng/trans/wiring/ecu all-in-one. I guess my main concern was if anything from that JDM package was D.O.A. if I could get by with using any locally sourced parts. I just saw a vendor on Ebay who was saying that using the JDM trans in the US would require all new solenoids and sensors to function...BUT if I'm using JDM engine and trans and stock ECU and harness I shouldn't have to replace anything. I like the sound of that.

5. A long shot but does anyone make any ITB's for the H23 engine? Obviously the stock ECU wouldn't be able to control it. I'd just like to see that set-up and see what it sounds like!

Thanks for the input.

MAD_MIKE

I do not know what car you are planning on putting this drivetrain into.
90-97 CB/CD you have a bit more freedom/ease of work compared to the 98-02 cars which have systems integrated a bit more, and I see less active members who do swaps on the 'CG' Accords.

Yup. H23 VTEC is going to have more usable power up front.
The time and money spent doing this, it would have been cheaper to purchase the H23VTEC up front.

Look no further than Prelude bits. Engines last longer when you don't have to rev the begesus out of them. Point H23.
Not quite. Although the S2K did use an 'F' series engine, it is not really an F series at all. S2K 'F' engine is more of a precursor to the K series engines that replaced the F/H/B/D engine families found in the Accord/Prelude/Integra/Civic.
Only commonalities are that they are made by Honda, share cubic capacity, and are four cylinder engines. That's about it.
Most swaps are done with tuning to be done. An OBDII engine would be converted to OBDI and then a chipped ECU would be used. But since you are looking at ATs, your choices are limited. I'm not sure if there is an actual programming issue with the ToonA crowd and AT cars, or if they are just being lazy about getting around some parameter/coding they have to do.
Or is there a physical issue with the TCU/harness/FAS wire. Pretty sure Hondata only works for MT cars.

I cannot confirm that the sensors are different, if they are it may be for production line reasons not what region the car was built for. SiR AT cars had S-Matic which could function as both normal AT or as a sequential transmission. That may be the reason for the differences.

AFAIK the AT in these cars is the later 98-02 M6HA these are not known for their longevity, unlike the beloved 90-97 H4A that will last 200K miles with little complaint.

GhostAccord has been working on ITB setup for his Accord for years, he has some videos of the system working on his Escape IIRC. He used a setup form a bike CBR? It does sound pretty wicked.

DavidWebb

Thanks for taking the time to answer all of these elementary questions. I did try searching but this forum is so large I can't justify reading through 37k replies.

So it looks like I'm in the market for the H23A blue-top with auto trans complete. I'll have to do some more digging to find which years were the best to buy and then start calling importers to see who still has them with the auto trans attached.

I'm not going to worry about the tune or anything. If I remove my current vehicles wiring harness and replace it with the jdm unit I should have no hiccups or tuning needs, just plug and play. That's an easy compromise for me.

Thanks again.

DavidWebb

I've been speaking with a local shop who is planning to do the fabrication and swap for me. They've brought up some interesting points.

1. He says the swap "isn't worth doing" unless I go with a K-series engine. I'm guessing the K20Z3 based on their current shop cars. (they do a lot of K-swaps into MR2's)

2. He says the F20/H23 will NOT be a plug and play affair even if I use the complete engine harness/ecu with the matching eng/trans. He says I need to purchase a "civic swap" harness and hondata ecu.


I was originally leaning towards the K20Z3 when I first thought of the swap but the lack of matching auto trans and higher price initially turned me away. What are your thoughts on his comments? Is this something I've overlooked?

MAD_MIKE

This is the Accord forum, if you are planning onto swapping this drivetrian into a non 90-02 Accord, this is not the forum for further swap information.

If you have a Civic then a B or K series swap would be a better option than than the larger F/H engines.

DavidWebb

It's not going in a honda at all. I posted in the accord forum because the donor vehicle is an accord SiR. I thought this was the appropriate place to ask accord technical questions.

chrisnick

An H swap is easy. Way less involved and invested than a K swap, with similar power. I don't deal with people like that, sounds like he doesn't want to deal with learning how to do such a swap. Its not complicated. Instead of paying labor, use that money to buy tools and do it all yourself. Honda's are ridiculously simple cars and you really only need about 6 different sizes for sockets and wrenches to get a swap done.

Fitz Williams

iTrader: (1)

But if it's not going in a Honda, what does it matter? It's all the same no matter which one he uses. And since most most motors have the trans on the left side like a K motor, it may be easier to use one of those. It would help to know what car it will be swapped into.

MAD_MIKE

So what car, truck, off road rig are you planning on using.
Uh, whut?
Unless you plan on doing some serious modifications(turbo, aggressive cams) or racing and need to delete/modify parameters, there really is no point in having the engine 'tuned'. Just leave it run off the stock PCM.

But since we have no clue as to what you want the drivetrain for, we really can't help you.

Data input insufficient.

DavidWebb

I'm doing the swap into my 2013 Smart Fortwo. Car came stock with 70bhp @ 1600lbs with an automatic. I'm looking for approx 210bhp with an automatic at the same (or as close to) 1600lbs. I want as near to an OEM look/feel as I can get. I believe that the larger engine moving much less weight (and at lower rpm's on the highway) will still keep my 45+mpg in tact while delivering a better overall experience.

The engine bay is fairly small but I think it's plenty accommodating for a small honda engine. I've seen people put toyota engines in the back as well as 4cyl motorcycle engines.

The tuner claims (and it made sense to me) that in order for a new engine/trans/ecu harness to work with the existing instrumentation that we need a custom harness (he calls it a "civic swap") that has extras removed and additional fuses/relays added. This will supposedly allow the stock instrumentation to remain while giving the flexibility to control the ecu properly even though we won't have proper emissions controls on the vehicle.

This shop comes fairly highly regarded for this type of work and I've seen several of their shop swaps which are all K-series swaps into MR2's...most in the 500hp range. I feel pretty strongly that they're the guys to squeeze this mostly stock engine into my tiny car. I've got a budget between $8-10k which I feel is pretty doable without cutting corners.

My main concern is downtime. I don't want to start a project and still have to acquire parts that delay the fabrication or tuning. I want to source everything upfront and just turn it all over and pick it up a few weeks later.

MAD_MIKE

See now this, this is data we can use.

Forget an F or H swap, these are great engines, but 200HP and 45MPG are not really possible with this drivetrain for a few reasons.
PGM-FI system is well, old. Last update was 15 years ago.
They are also all Speed Density(SD) systems. Not the best when looking for more accuracy. A drivetrain that already has a Mass Air Flow(MAF) system will be able to calculate faster and much more accurately for better power and economy.
And the transmissions are only 4spds that don't really have the most economical of top gear/final drive.

With the introduction of the K series K24 160HP in the '03 Accords, it is not hard to pull down 40MPG. K20 found in '05 RSX Type S had 210HP.
I'll guess the Accord probably has better gearing for economy, vs the sportier RSX. But some of the earlier 5spd ATs had issues. K series comes with MAF system and the engine is a bit more compact, uses timing chain rather than belt, and rotate the more common clockwise, unlike the H/F which are counter clockwise running. Latest K24s use direct injection and 185HP in the Accord with 25/36MPG EPA rating.

A K series swap is the better choice for power/economy.

DavidWebb

That's essentially what the builder told me..just not in so much detail. He told me to focus on finding a K24 from a CR-V but those are the 160hp versions. Again,....I've seen smart cars with 150whp run 12s quarter miles but I was really shooting for that magical 300% more hp than stock. That is more of a "want" than a "need" though. I have a feeling the extra low-end torque of the K24 would more than make up for a little off the top.

Right now I'm getting between 45-52mpg in the smart but it's pretty anaemic. I'm hoping to get at least 45mpg as well as a big jump in power. I think that's a pretty attainable goal.

DavidWebb

It looks like we're settling in on the K24A2 from the 06+ TSX. This should be the 205hp engine. A local honda guy near me says that hondata offers an ecu for it that gives something like 24hp 28tq on just the tune. When i go to hondata's site there is no mention of anything working with an automatic trans.

bugger