josh4trunks

Hello,
I was wondering if someone could help me out with my situation? Thank you in advance for the help!

I took my 95 Honda Accord in today to do its every 2 year California smog test. It failed because timing was set to 21 degrees, instead of the prescribed 15 degrees. It also had high NO at 25mph which they said may be related to the bad timing. What is weird is I did not adjusted the timing since I passed smog 2 years ago at the same station; I still barely know what timing is...

The smog station allows me a free retest within 30 days. I hope to take the retest with the correct timing and either pass, or fail because of high emissions. At least if I fail because of high emissions I can apply for California's Vehicle Retirement Program and get a $1000 for the car. I have been researching timing, and I think I have a grasp on it. I'm thinking of buying the 'INNOVA 3551' timing light, but I not sure how I could measure or set the timing to a specific degree. I assume to set it to a specific degree I would need something more advanced like the INNOVA 3555?

Would you guys suggest I buy a timing light and try to set it to 15 degrees myself, or check in with a local mechanic how much they would charge to set the timing. I am somewhat scared that if I bring it into a mechanic they will try charging me $100+ to set the timing.
Thanks!

holmesnmanny

Sounds like either the distributor was taken off or moved since the last test. Check on youtube for how to set ignition timing. It's really easy with a timing gun.

jollyhonda

How is your car running? 6 degrees is a fair amount for your timing to be off just on its own. You might look carefully at the mounting ears on the distributor to see if you can see any kind of impression of where the bolts that hold it used to be on the distributor.

josh4trunks

@holmesnmanny
Possibly it got moved on accident, I did replace my starter a few months ago when debugging a start problem.
So with a basic timing gun (like the INNOVA 3551), can I set the timing to a specific degree, or just make sure the timing is correct? I wanted to make sure the smog guy actually records it at 15 degrees

Thanks guys for the reassurance it's not too hard a job.

jollyhonda

I am not sure the exacts on the timing light you are referencing, but you can pick up a cheap timing light somewhere like Harbor Freight that will do the job.

josh4trunks

The cheap ones I see have no dial/screen to set a specific degree.
How would I see what degree it is currently set at? When I looked at my belt all I saw was a label saying Mitsubishi, no degree markings like some videos/tutorials mention.

Sorry I'm a complete noob at this.

josh4trunks

Here's a guess. If I use a cheap (non adjustable) timing light, and get the belt line (not sure what I'm looking for here) to line up with the marker, will that mean my timing is correctly set at 15 degrees?

Here's a post that somewhat explains my concern with getting a cheap timing light.
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads...#post-24380519
"Some don't have scales on the tab, they just have a single mark. These require a timing light that has a degree dial."
I do not think I see notches but I'm not 100% sure I know what I'm looking for.

MAD_MIKE

Starting in '94 the Accord now uses a timing tab at the front of the engine.


It is kind of hard to see as the way to see the timing tab in the proper alignment requires you to look past the PS pump and belt. It's in a bad spot.
You know you are looking at the tab correctly when the pointer and 'V' groove form a 'W'. You have to sight it.
TDC mark is a single notch in the crank pulley, it will be white or possibly faded discolored to yellow.
Ignition timing mark will be a group of three notches, if still painted will be red. These are the marks you want to align with the pointer.


As you can see in the above image the paint is worn away. The circled triple notches are for ignition timing, the engine in the photo is set to TDC on the single notch. Also note how the timing tab has been flattened a bit. Verify that your lower cover is not damaged or the tower has been damaged from abuse. Pointer should be perpendicular to the cover.

To properly set base ignition timing the engine will need to be fully warmed up, all accessories(radio/fan/AC/etc) and lighting off. Turn off the engine.
Look below/behind the center of the glove box door, there will be two blue connectors(94/95). You want to pull down the TWO wire blue connector.


Jumper the two wire connector with a metal(uncoated/unpainted) paperclip, wire, or a code retriever tool like Perfomance tool W80520(~$5)


Turn the ignition switch to II(ON) verify no stored codes.
Loosen the three bolts on the distributor housing, leave the top or most accessible bolt slightly snug enough to allow you to hand adjust timing, but not enough to allow the distributor to rotate on its own.


Start the engine. ECU timing adjustment will now be disabled and the timing will not change(move) so you can now properly adjust the base ignition timing.

Timing should be 15° ± 2° @ 700rpm ± 50rpm

If the timing is off, adjust.
If after the timing is adjusted the rpm should be also within spec. If not there is another issue that will need to be addressed before taking it back for smog.

Timing lights.
I have both Innova 3551 and 3568. For general usage, the 3555 alone is a bit useless without a separate Tach, and it's price point makes it a bit pointless if the 3568 can be purchased for a few dollars more.
3551 is fine for checking timing if you know the engine is already in proper working order and at the correct RPM. But you really should have a separate Tach to verify rpm. Factory tach is not reliable.
3555 is fine for checking how far off or other timing purposes, but for a novice the adjustment feature may confuse you, and without a Tach function it is lacking a critical function.
3568 is the best it has an advance/retard feature, as well as a tach readout. Great multipurpose tune-up tool.

Attach the timing light pickup to the #1 wire which is the one closest to the front of the engine(where the AC/PS belts are). Make sure the pickup is facing the correct way, usually there is an arrow and a plug mark. If the pickup is installed backwards the strobe light will flash at the wrong timing and you may set the timing to the wrong mark(and fail again).

If your emissions were slightly higher than anticipated, adjust the timing to the red notch closer to the TDC mark(13°) this is still acceptable per the test(± 2°), but will help burn reduce HCs and NOx slightly. If the car is a gross polluter this will not help, but if the numbers are close this may get you past.

josh4trunks

@MAD_MIKE wow thanks for all that! I figured some of that out from spending a few hours randomly googling/youtubeing but your post will be very helpful for reference. Also the picture with the markings is super useful.

Ok, I'm gonna get a 3551. Should I assume the middle groove, of the 3 groove cluster is 15 degrees? I'll aim for that, tighten down the distributor, then head to smog. I'm fine if it fails because of high emissions, just do not want another functional fail. If it fails due to high emissions I plan on retiring this for $1000 and shopping for something else to get me around town.

MAD_MIKE

Correct.
Each groove is 2°. Middle is 15°, closest to TDC is 13° and furthest would be 17°
FWIW,
A common high NOx emissions failu-re is due to the EGR manifold becoming clogged with soot and plugging the EGR manifold to intake runner ports. If your car pings, pulses, or misfires at part throttle cruise, and has over 100Kmiles, it is most likely the EGR manifold needs to be simply cleaned.
1994-1997 Accord 2.2s have a separate EGR manifold that can be unbolted and cleaned, it is located under the fuel rail, but not hard to remove. Clear out the manifold and the plugged ports and this will reduce your NOx emissions output. EGR port cleaning My only suggestion to that write up is to not use any cleaner as it turns the softer sooty deposits into a brown slurry mess and doesn't break up the harder carbon deposits. Use a #1 and #2 flat blade straight edged screwdrivers to clear out the channels. #2 is perfect for cleaning the channels out and the proper size for 'drilling' out the intake runner ports to the step, then use the #1 blade to 'drill' out the rest of the port. Each runner port is different, IIRC the smallest is near the EGR valve and the largest is for the #1 cylinder. With the exception of time and the EGR valve gasket(~$1.50) this is a free fix.

I've come to appreciate the 94-97 Accords, they are cheap, easy to fix(Lego), cheap to fix, get good MPG(28.5MPG for my '95 normally, 34MPG in geezer mode, all with the wrong(Odyssey) transmission), just about all the problems/fixes this car can have has been documented here at H-T.com, and the mid 90s contemporary styling does not look bad at all. IMO for a putt-putt you really can't beat the price point and cost of ownership of these Accords.

josh4trunks

Makes sense. I'm wondering how the smog guy measured 21 degrees then? My timing must be way off.

Totally agree, this is a great car. I don't know much about cars but have been able to replace a lot of parts in it as they have worn down the last few years. I've learned a bit here and there and feel more confident about how the thing works.
But... my wife doesn't love it, lol. She wants to get a new SUV and pass her 2007 Altima to me =/

MAD_MIKE

Tech most likely had an adjustable timing gun, he could back off the timing on his gun til it lined up with the base ignition timing. Add the amount of degrees he had to back off to get back to 15° and he gets 21°.
For an around the town to work and back car it is perfect. It shares parts that have been used on multiple Hondas and from a pricepoint it is hard to beat.

Trade in the Altima for the SUV. There is just something inherently wrong with Nissan's(Datsun was fine). They have never been any fun/easy to work on, never really that cheap to fix with the plethora of redundant sensors, and IMO don't look good. They are the red -headed step child of Japanese cars.

josh4trunks

So I played around with my Innova 3551 timing light a bit today and am now a bit confused by what I saw in my engine.
Please see my "crappy" drawing attached. I'll followup this post with my thoughts.

josh4trunks

Here's my observations, and the original position of everything.
originally, the distributor (when viewing from passenger side of the car) was turned all the way counter clockwise
originally, the sight was very close to the dark red mark
my white mark, looked pink
my 3 degree notches seemed to be on the opposite side of what you showed? Possibly I need to clean this crank (i think this is the name) so I can see stuff better as I might just not be seeing the notches correctly
after rotating my distrubutor all the way clockwise, the sight was now landing where I though the 3 marks were.


Here is what I am confused about...
When looking at the crank (from the driver side of the car), it seems to rotate counter clockwise.
1) If this is the case, should not TDC be on the left of the degree marks? How I understand it, the sight should pass over TDC first, then some measure of degrees after it should pass over the white mark.
2) Are degrees a measure of time/rotation after TDC, or before?
3) is 21 degrees advanced or retarded compared to 15 degrees?
4) does rotating my distributor (when viewing from the passenger side of the car) clockwise increase or decrease the degrees
5) Is it possible my belts just skipped a tooth, or my TDC is not correct?
6) regarding the EGR cleaning you mentioned, I clicked the link and I need to buy some replacement parts to do that job right?
7) Is there a proper way to rotate the crank when the engine is off so I can clean / mark the notches?

Thank you so much for any help.

josh4trunks

Im thinking the following explains my weird findings...
* degree advanced, actually means it happens before TDC
* The dark red mark I am seeing is not TDC
* If this is the case I think I can get my timing within spec (near the pink mark I am seeing) by retarding the timing all the way (by rotating the distributor clockwise)
* possibly my crank is not set properly, so even setting my timing correctly using my timing light does not actually time the engine properly

Would it make sense that retarding my timing all the way only gets me down to 15 degrees?
Would 15-21 be a valid range of what the engine can be set to?

jollyhonda

What you are observing on the crank is the opposite of what it should be. If your TDC mark is at 12 oclock, the other timing marks should be 11ish, not 1ish. If your distributor is twisted all the way counter clockwise then it most likely is too advanced.

smithers646

+1 for Jollyhonda- your sketch has the three marks at 12 o'clock and TDC at 11. If viewed from the DRIVER side looking in, then your sketch is backwards. See Mike's drawing: TDC is at 12 while the three marks are at 11. If yours is not this way, you may be looking at a stray mark instead of the TDC mark. Crank does (I believe) turn CCW viewed from driver's side looking in.
Look for the Vee notch marks are on the OUTSIDE EDGE of the pulley (as far to driver side and away from engine as possible). The color marks on my 94's pulley departed a long time ago and had to be reapplied with a paint pen.

I am not the connoisseur of timing lights but I believe yours is fixed at 0 degrees. If so, then your sketch looks like you're about at 21 degrees and your TDC mark is wrong.

Loosen the three (there are three, not two) distro mounting bolts slightly, and rotate the distributor back toward the middle of the slots.
If you have a buddy do that while you hold the light on target, you should see the gunsight mark slide back to the middle notch. When you get there, stop the engine and retighten.

holmesnmanny

Are you jumpering the service connector ?

josh4trunks

yes I'm jumping the service connector and verify the check engine light is on/blinking (forgot which one)

I'm thinking the "TDC" mark I am seeing is a stray mark as suggested. what's is weird is even with my distributor cranked all the way away from the firewall my sight only goes about to what I think is 15 degrees.

I think what I need to do is clean the crank/mark it. any suggestions on this process? I'm thinking I need some type of cleaner (would alcohol work?) and I need to somehow turn the crank manually.
my coworker suggested I put it in neutral and push it a bit, but I have also seen YouTube videos saying they just turned one of the accessible pulleys.

Thanks for all the feedback!

smithers646

I wouldn't use any cleaning fluids down there. Don't mess up the belts that are on the pulley.
If you're really set on doing it, recommend you jack up the front and remove the driver front wheel, and then the remove the fender liner. You will then have full and easy access to the crank pulley.
If you take the valve cover off, you can verify that you're at TDC with the camshaft pulley marks, and then see where the gunsight is pointing on the crankshaft.
If you're going to be rotating the engine over by hand, you'll want to:
--1) remove the spark plugs (then you're never fighting engine compression, and it should rotate fairly easily)
--2) use a socket (19mm or a 3/4", gently) on that bolt head in the middle of the crankshaft pulley
--3) Only rotate the engine (from driver side looking in) in the counter-clockwise direction. Try not to turn the engine backwards from he direction it's supposed to go.
-I've seen those guys recommend turning the engine over with the power steering pump or whatever- I wouldn't do that. It just seems like a bad idea. The PS pump, mount, and belt are not designed for that.
-Rolling the engine by hand will not loosen that bolt head on the crankshaft pulley. It seems like moving heaven and earth to actually do this.
-on the notches: I marked mine with Sharpies- silver in the notch, red on the edges, and it's obvious in the timing light. Just make it high contrast.
Here's a link to a glorious, illustrated procedure for timing belt/waterpump replacement: LINK You're only doing a couple of these steps, but look at the pictures (like this one). They should help.
As an add-in: With valve cover off, you may also want to check the valve lash, if you haven't done it recently... LINK

josh4trunks

Thanks @smithers646 for the tips!
Taking off the wheel is probably more than I would want to handle myself, thought I may pay a local mechanic to look at my car and do what you suggested.

josh4trunks

To update this thread, it worked =]
I was able to set the proper timing, pass smog, and then set it back to where the car runs normal again.